Governator Denies ex-Crip Leader's Appeal on Death Sentence

[JDK]

I'm not agreeing with him here, but Kanye West could have a decent argument for his "comment" after this case. Race card is abused but in this instance I could see why people would use it, still, not saying that those people are right. I personally just don't like the lethal injection idea at all. First of all, it is murder, any way you look at it. 2 wrongs don't make a right. It costs more than a life sentence. Plus, I know if I was a criminal, I would rather be killed than live the rest of my life in a living hell. I think whoever came up with the concept that the death penalty was worse than a life sentence was stoned.

First, let's look at the facts. Despite denial, Tookie Williams is a convicted murderer of 4 people. The evidence in the case is overwhelmingly against his favor. We don't even take into account the other "possible" crimes and murders he "may" have committed. He shot a cashier in the back at a 7-11 and made a joke out of it.

Now, lets take the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" for instance. Now, you're telling me, that the killings of innocent people and a GANG LEADER/FOUNDER convicted of MULTIPLE HOMICIDE are the same thing? Are you kidding me? If getting rid of a murderer off of this planet is WRONG, then what is truly right? I think Tookie was well aware once he started his gang, that his chance of death rised about 700%. Nobody thinks that he is getting what he should've seen coming?!

And it's all well and good he writes stupid little children's books (you really want your kids reading something he wrote?!) and was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. It's good, I guess, he's telling kids the dangers of gangs, like this nation's children are really that damn stupid (well, they might be). That doesn't negate what you already did, though. You can kill all the people you want, but if you become real nice to everybody you can be forgiven? Is that BS or what? And if you really want to teach kids how gangs are bad, then what better example then to die for the crime he committed?

[medric822]

If Osama bin Laden was found and he started writing children's books telling them not to be terrorists, would you still be saying to let him go?

thats a little different, Tookie killed 4 that we know of. Or should I say, supposedly killed 4 that we know of. Osama has killed many more than that, including those who didn't die on Sept 11th. By that I mean the War on Terror. The only war on something invisible, but that has devastating effects.

Keeping him alive is just costing society more money...

Ok, well, so is your grandparents or parents who may be old and febile. They cant go out and get a job at a factory, and if thats the case, we should shoot them execution stlye, so that here not building up in the world today.

Ofcorse that comment was sarcasm, you get my basic meaning. You cant just kill someone to eliminate their living expenses. It's like the NYPD having the authority to shoot any homeless people that they see. Ok, forget only the NYPD, make tht the entire USA.

Just two more cents. I'm going back to search in my couch for more money too!

[MarkB]

Unfortunately, I just checked BBC.co.uk and he was executed at 8.01am GMT. Yes, the man did wrong in his life. Yes, a jury found him guilty of comitting the crimes he was executed for. Does that mean he did it? Does that mean he didn't do it? No, that means nothing. Juries are presented with evidence which can be angled in many ways, either for the prosecution or for the defence. Either way, how does killing another person, no matter what his crimes, do any good?

I really have much, much more to say on this, but I just got home from work and I, quite frankly, don't want to type.

The long and short of it is, I don't think he should have been executed, and not only does it, yet again, smack the living **** out of the American criminal justice system's claims of rehabilitation over punishment, it represents the shocking political aspects of life and death in the 21st century.

Quite honestly, I'm ashamed to live in a country that's considered one of America's allies.

jogar, yes, when the "gang" was originally founded, it was named so to stand for California Revolution In Progress. Unfortunately, like many other things, it lost it's meaning over time and is barely heard of now due to uninformed youth joining the "gang" and not being told the history of it, as with many other things.

[Guest JWClubbie]

Keeping him alive is just costing society more money...

Now that has to be one the more ignorant things I have heard. How about editing that statement to the other lowlife's that are rotting in jail not making a contribution for society and rehabilitating themselves.

[Guest JWClubbie]

My Letter To Incarcerated Youth, No. 1

I've been on San Quentin's death row for more than 21 years. I hope that this brief message will provoke thoughts of change among you.

Across this nation, countless young men and women, like you, are vegetating in juvenile halls and in youth authorities. More and more prisons are being constructed to accommodate your generation when you grow to adulthood. The question is, can you become motivated enough to defy the expectations that many people have of you?

For those of you who are fortunate enough to regain your freedom, prepare an agenda to survive outside the walls of incarceration. Learn about computer technology, politics and the sciences.

On the other hand, if some of you are facing a lot of time, I suggest that you strive to educate and discipline your mind. If you have access to a library, read every relevant book that you can get your hands on. Educate yourselves about history, world religions, math, English, spirituality and your culture.

It's time to flip the script. You or I can complain 24x7 about the problems of poverty, drugs, violence, racism and other injustices, but unless we choose to initiate a personal change, we will remain puppets of unjust conditions. Unless we change, we will be incapable of changing the circumstances around us.

In conclusion, there are two ways to view your incarceration: either your present situation will convince you to straighten up your life or it will be the beginning of a wasteful future behind bars. Or worse - you'll end up on death row.

Yep, Let's not waste any more money!

[Chicago11]

It's too bad he turned himself around a little bit too late....maybe his books will turn a future gang member around before it is too late.

[SwinginSoriano]

It's not like lethal injections are free either.

Actually, killing a guy costs more money due to the appeals process, but that doesn't mean capital punishment should end. Where should we draw the line?

Death: "Oh my God, it's inhumane to kill people."

Life: "Oh my God, it's inhumane to keep people in prison for the rest of their lives, isn't prison about reform?"

60+ Years: "Oh my God, that's like someone's entire life."

30 - 60 Years: "That's a long time!"

If you take the death penalty away, there will be costly appeal for each and every 'worst punishment' possible.

Where do you draw the line? Prison is about reforming people but how many get reformed? (How many are perverted by Prison Culture, aka Hell on Earth?) Prison is obviously a punishment, you break the law you get punished. It is convenient to make exceptions for certain people, but the law is supposed to be blind and without exceptions. If someone wants an exception, there is a pardon, obviously the pardon isn't being used.

Everyone is always complaining that punishments are too harsh but there has to be a deterrent. And from the people I know who had worked at prisons, most of these people deserve what they are getting.

[Pirate]

Questions?

Where do we put all these criminals?

Who pays for them?

- Why should I with a clean record pay for those who commit crimes?

If it is moral were are worried about does the bible not say an eye for an eye?

How does one know if a person is rehabilitated?

How does the world not benefit from the death of a killer?

Have any of you had a family member killed?

- What was your feeling after taht person was killed?

Tookie Williams is a cold blooded murderer of four people, but is responsible for the deaths of thousands. He is as tyranical as Saddam Hussien and Osama Bin Laden. I could murder a thousand people write a couple books and be "turned around eh? Why don't we give Charles Manson a pen, and Hussein a pen and when/if we cathc Osama - lets give him a pen too.

Tookie is gone and the world is better off not to hear his stupidity and ranting that he is a better person. A killer is a killer.

[tbs3000]

He should die and i think all convicts in for life should go with him.waste of money and time,give the family they killed the help these guys get in jail.just sounding off,my brother was getting ready to go to college and was killed and nailed to the ground because he didn't join them.most of them are crazy.

[Hory]

I think it's ironic that the 'land of the free' is the only modern Western country that kills it's own citizens,

Canada doesn't, Europe doesn't, even Israel which would have more reason than most, doesn't have the death penalty.

The US is right up there with China, Iran and Zimbabwe in it's love for state sanctioned killing.

It's barbaric and immoral for the state to have the power to execute.

And Since the death penalty was re-introduced in the 70s, the murder rate has continously gone up, so it's obviously not making any difference.

And I'm quite shocked seeing the supposed 'Christians" on tv celebrating a killing, when I'm fairly certain, execution is not what Jesus would do.

[UncleMo]

Hory, I respectfully submit to you these questions: Who? Which Christians? Which television shows are you speaking of? Not everyone that says they are a Christian is a Christian. Not every Christian, for that matter, holds the saem views. Just a side note, not to take this off topic.

[Hory]

I'm not implying all Christians hold the same views, far from it, but I was referring in part to those "Christian" pro-death penalty protestors outside San Quentin and a few commentators I was unlucky enough to see on Fox News and other news channels.

In my opinion if you follow what Jesus taught in the New testament - supporting the death penalty and being a Christian are incompatible.

Just my opinion, of course :)

[big shmooz]

I think it's ironic that the 'land of the free' is the only modern Western country that kills it's own citizens,

Canada doesn't, Europe doesn't, even Israel which would have more reason than most, doesn't have the death penalty.

The US is right up there with China, Iran and Zimbabwe in it's love for state sanctioned killing.

It's barbaric and immoral for the state to have the power to execute.

And Since the death penalty was re-introduced in the 70s, the murder rate has continously gone up, so it's obviously not making any difference.

And I'm quite shocked seeing the supposed 'Christians" on tv celebrating a killing, when I'm fairly certain, execution is not what Jesus would do.

I think some of the points you bring up are valid & some are not.

I can't agree though with you that it is barbaric & immoral that the state should have the power to execute. This is their job & responsibility. They are there to protect the citizens of the country. Part of doing this job & fulfilling this responsibility is by making sure that the criminals in society are punished & justice is served. As a believer in G-D who created this world, I believe G-D gave man laws in order to maintain this justice & keep us as civilized beings. If we do not punish criminals properly, then we lose the right to govern ourselves. G-D who is the most merciful Being says that a man who murders another must be executed. (reference Genesis chapter 8 verse 6)

I think the US is making a mistake not in the death penalty itself, but rather in it's system of how it allows appeals. I think that if there is a legitimate point that the defense has as to why the client is not guilty, then of course we must hear the appeal. The problem is, the courts hear appeals on the case for the most ridiculous reasons also. I think when the time between the sentencing & the execution is 26 years, that borders on the insane. I think that justice needs to be swift in order to have the power of deterrance. If people see that they wait 26 years to execute even after being found guilty, you're correct in that it's not a deterrant.

As far as your mention of Israel... I as a Jew feel I should address that. Personally I am ashamed that Israel does not have a death penalty. (actually they technically do have the death penalty for one crime. This is what is known as "crimes against humanity". This is what A. Eichmann was found guilty of & executed for) As you said, they above most countries would have reason to do so. I actually resided in Israel for 7 years. I have seen what is going on there. They NEED the death penalty. But again, it needs to be done in a sensible manner in order to act as a deterrant.

I want to end with saying that while I am not a Christian & so I can't really speak to your "Christian" comments... I do agree that celebrating an execution is not proper. Rather we should focus inwardly & take it to heart that justice is being served & that we must resolve to make ourselves better people so we do not end up doing the same things that the person who was executed did.

Again, just my 2 cents (or less).

[UncleMo]

I think both arguments hold a lot of water and I personally, as a born again Christian bo back and forth.

Ex: I see the a most disgusting crime and feel horror and say within myself "I hope they kill him for that (insert name of crime here)".

Yet I can see some other horrible horrible crime and say "I sure hope that person changes and gets saved while they are in prison." Contradictory, I know, but honest, yes. I like both arguments myself and feel tha they hold weight on both spectrums and thus try to stay out of that debate most of the time. I wonder where I'd stand if someone in my family was murdered/raped, etc. etc. I can not say.

[DJEagles]

Nobody ever said to let him loose. If Osama was consistantly preaching against terror, I might consider a life sentence, but what he did was a little worse than this gang leader. Kookie didn't change the way of life so drasticly in an entire country.

Your kidding right TribeTime? He founded one of the most notorious gangs in America? The Crips aren't a baseball team....they are a frigging gang! They have terrorized L.A. for years. As far as I am concerned he is no better then Bin Laden. He may not have changed the way of life for an entire country, but I bet he affected the lives of the thousands of people who either joined or have been terrorized by the Crips.

[fldude2k1]

One thing Tookie at least had remorse in was creating the gang (which he claimed was to be there to put up with the random violence in his neighborhood).. His apology...

Twenty-five years ago when I created the Crips youth gang with Raymond Lee Washington in South Central Los Angeles, I never imagined Crips membership would one day spread throughout California, would spread to much of the rest of the nation and to cities in South Africa, where Crips copycat gangs have formed. I also didn't expect the Crips to end up ruining the lives of so many young people, especially young black men who have hurt other young black men.

Raymond was murdered in 1979. But if he were here, I believe he would be as troubled as I am by the Crips legacy.

So today I apologize to you all -- the children of America and South Africa -- who must cope every day with dangerous street gangs. I no longer participate in the so-called gangster lifestyle, and I deeply regret that I ever did.

As a contribution to the struggle to end child-on-child brutality and black-on-black brutality, I have written the Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence children's book series. My goal is to reach as many young minds as possible to warn you about the perils of a gang lifestyle.

I am no longer "dys-educated" (disease educated). I am no longer part of the problem. Thanks to the Almighty, I am no longer sleepwalking through life.

I pray that one day my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering, caused by gang violence, will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others.

I vow to spend the rest of my life working toward solutions.

Amani (Peace),

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, Surviving Crips Co-Founder,

April 13, 1997

[Pirate]

I could write taht too. It means nothing. He founded a teror group in the crips. He has killed thousands by creating that group. I don't care if really is sorry, maybe he should have thought about consequence before he killed four people. He can never be forgiven for the crips though. He is as bad as Osamma and Sadam Hussein and Vald the Impaler and Stalin and Mousallini...

[Kriegz]

First, let's look at the facts. Despite denial, Tookie Williams is a convicted murderer of 4 people. The evidence in the case is overwhelmingly against his favor. We don't even take into account the other "possible" crimes and murders he "may" have committed. He shot a cashier in the back at a 7-11 and made a joke out of it.

Now, lets take the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right" for instance. Now, you're telling me, that the killings of innocent people and a GANG LEADER/FOUNDER convicted of MULTIPLE HOMICIDE are the same thing? Are you kidding me? If getting rid of a murderer off of this planet is WRONG, then what is truly right? I think Tookie was well aware once he started his gang, that his chance of death rised about 700%. Nobody thinks that he is getting what he should've seen coming?!

And it's all well and good he writes stupid little children's books (you really want your kids reading something he wrote?!) and was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. It's good, I guess, he's telling kids the dangers of gangs, like this nation's children are really that damn stupid (well, they might be). That doesn't negate what you already did, though. You can kill all the people you want, but if you become real nice to everybody you can be forgiven? Is that BS or what? And if you really want to teach kids how gangs are bad, then what better example then to die for the crime he committed?

In my eyes, when the government starts killing, it makes them look just as low of a scum as a gang. This pisses me off alot more than economic problems or health care which is all that the politician care about, because it is all the voters care about. Why? Because it effects them personally. bitches. Anyways, what do you see in a life sentence that makes it a weak punishment?

[Kriegz]

I'm not implying all Christians hold the same views, far from it, but I was referring in part to those "Christian" pro-death penalty protestors outside San Quentin and a few commentators I was unlucky enough to see on Fox News and other news channels.

In my opinion if you follow what Jesus taught in the New testament - supporting the death penalty and being a Christian are incompatible.

Just my opinion, of course

And they are the same Christians who are preaching homosexuality. I agree with Hory for the first time in months. :p

[Kriegz]

Your kidding right TribeTime? He founded one of the most notorious gangs in America? The Crips aren't a baseball team....they are a frigging gang! They have terrorized L.A. for years. As far as I am concerned he is no better then Bin Laden. He may not have changed the way of life for an entire country, but I bet he affected the lives of the thousands of people who either joined or have been terrorized by the Crips.

Are you saying that inner city LA is just as much as an influnce as the entire Middle East region? 8O

[Kriegz]

I could write taht too. It means nothing. He founded a teror group in the crips. He has killed thousands by creating that group. I don't care if really is sorry, maybe he should have thought about consequence before he killed four people. He can never be forgiven for the crips though. He is as bad as Osamma and Sadam Hussein and Vald the Impaler and Stalin and Mousallini...

And is going to be running his gang and killing people while serving a life sentence in prison?

[DJEagles]

And is going to be running his gang and killing people while serving a life sentence in prison?

Please don't kid yourslef. He could run a gang from prison. You would be surprised what people could still accomplish while behind bars. Al Capone still ran the mob from prison. It could be done. I am not saying Wilson was, but it wouldn't be impossible.

[MarkB]

And they are the same Christians who are preaching homosexuality. I agree with Hory for the first time in months.

Co-signed to the highest degree.

Also, for all those who agree with Tookie being killed - how does the U.S. government killing a man make them any better than anyone else who decides to kill a man?

[Kriegz]

Please don't kid yourslef. He could run a gang from prison. You would be surprised what people could still accomplish while behind bars. Al Capone still ran the mob from prison. It could be done. I am not saying Wilson was, but it wouldn't be impossible.

That could be easily fixed by higher security which could be payed for but a portion of the money being used currently on lethal injections. Also, the security has also changed drasticly between Capone and now.

[DJEagles]

And they are the same Christians who are preaching homosexuality. I agree with Hory for the first time in months.

Fact is TribeTime, Inner-city gangs are a big problem in the States. It has ruined the lives of thousands of blacks, whites, mexicans, puerto-ricans, etc. Maybe Bush should worry about what is happening on his own soil, with his own people before he tries to clean up somebody elses back yard. Street Ganags were terrorizing americans long before Osama was around, aand when Osama is gone, street gangs will still be running rampat.

I also take offense to your homosexuality remark. I am a straight man, but if somebody wants to be gay, leave them alone. They aren't hurting anyone, and if they are christian, so be it. Nobody has the tight to judge them. How are they any less christian then you or I. If you ask me, it is unchristian of you to be judging them. Only God does the judging.