Governator Denies ex-Crip Leader's Appeal on Death Sentence

[UncleMo]

You guys keep it cool. just don't bother getting angry at each other. TT just wanted to keep this as an honest debate. I think everything has been said, no?

[DJEagles]

Anyway, I have no ill will to anyone debating this issue. We all are entitled to our opinions. It has been a very healthy debate, but I shall bow out now...TT, hopefully we shall raise "MVP Poker Nights" from the ashes very soon!

...Seacrest Out!

[Kriegz]

If Hammurabi's Code still exsisted today, there would be a lot less crime.

It depends if you consider what the government is doing a crime. djeagles says that they will be going to hell why not speed up the process. Well, then the goverment is going to go to hell too, right?

[Kriegz]

You guys keep it cool. just don't bother getting angry at each other. TT just wanted to keep this as an honest debate. I think everything has been said, no?

Yep, still, nobody has gotten personal. I didn't think that feat was possible. :lol:

[SwinginSoriano]

I would imagine prison life is a little more desierable then being in a coffin...just my opinion though.

No way, I'd rather die than be someone's *****.

Other crap I want to say:

- In Hammurabi's code you can pay $$$ to escape punishment

- The bible says all sorts of things, especially in the old testament. I'm not saying it's wrong but it causes people either to pick and choose or claim it's all BS.

- I wonder if people could find a way to glorify my Music Teacher... The media can do anything.

- People think this guy getting the death penalty is a bigger tragedy than tons of innocent people dying as we speak. Cry for them, not a God damn killer.

- Killing a killer does not undo the killing, or 'bring them back'. But hey, a killer deserves it. It's that simple to me. In fact, death is an easy way out compared to the punishment some people truly deserve. And yes, punishments for crimes are a deterrent.

- My avatar is awesome

[Kriegz]

- My avatar is awesome

True, but it is soooooo May 05 man :lol:

[Pirate]

Hell guys, at least the terrorists are true to thier beliefs. I'm not a religion fanatic but it's kinda hard to miss those big ones like killing and homosexuality.

So we have a homophobe wanting to save a murderer's life. Great. Not a personal attack just a factual observation.

[big shmooz]

just wanted to clarify more concerning eye for an eye... your quote dshillymonkey, from exodus, is in the old testament, part of the law. not that the law is to be ignored, it clearly gives guidelines to live by, but i can discuss this very indepth with anyone in a pm if your interested but, long story short, jesus' death on the cross broke the veil in the temple separating the holiest of holies from the rest of the tabernacle... in turn... now all have access to the place where before only the high priest had access, thus man needs no mediator for forgiveness, as the high priest was. therefore, the laws like that concerning and eye for an eye are no longer relavent because all have access to jesus, not just the high priest. the reason those laws were in place was because the high priest had to atone for those sins and the only way he could was through a punishment and a sacrifice... since that no longer had to happen, because all could reach the holiest of holies... it doesnt apply anymore... hope this clears that up... if not i can try to explain more...

As an observant Jew, I do not see it that way. I don't feel it's right to debate Judaism verses Christianity in these forums, but I will say this... G-D's law is perfect & to add on to perfection is impossible. G-D said the law is that a man who murders must be put to death for this. I quoted earlier a Scripture from Genesis that is binding on all mankind. Not just on Israel. I could quote many Scriptures that speak of how murder is a capital crime but those deal strictly with Israel. The law I quoted from Genesis though is on ALL mankind.

You mention that the new test disagrees. Actually based on your quote that is not actually so. You quote jesus as saying he is without sin cast the first stone. Well, then even there if a person were theoretically not guilty of adultery then they would be able to cast the first stone. (I don't believe it to mean he who is without ANY sin, but rather the idea here being stated as I understand it is, what you yourself are guilty of <in this case adultery> don't execute somebody else for.) I could go deeper into this particular aspect & why the entire episode makes no sense to somebody educated in Jewish law <which I am> but again, I do not feel that this is appropriate for this forum.

I could say more about the idea that this concept of "he without sin cast the first stone" is in fact going against G-D's law which as I said above "is perfect", but that would already get into the area of debating Judaism verses Christianity, which as I said earlier I don't think should be debated in a public forum such as this.

If you or anybody wanted to discuss this with me PM's I feel would be more appropriate.

Anyway, again my 2 cents. (am wondering if with inflation that 2 cents is becoming worth even less)

[big shmooz]

Ok, now this is confusing so pay attention. So, we are killing someone for killing people, why arn't we killing ourselves, because arn't we killing people after all, which is exactly what we are convicting this guy of. So, are you saying should we have someone rape a serial rapist? Should we have someone rob a burglar's house? Should we start sending illegal immigrants to countries who put thiers in the US? None of these instances make any sense so why should it be any different with life and death?

There is a difference between killing & murder. Many people make this mistake. Killing is not wrong, murder is.

Raping a rapist is wrong because G-D's law speaks against rape. G-D's law does not speak against killing.

As far as the burglar, yes. (well... kinda) Scriptural law states that a person who burgles has to pay back double.

[big shmooz]

Listen, I guess I am just annoyed because I have had a member of my family a victim of a serious crime....I guarantee it it has happened to someone yo love, you will have a different attitude towards things.

People can act all self righteous now...but you'd be singing a different tune if you or a loved one were a victim of a crime. These people in prison...I mean the guilty ones, are a step above animals in my opinion. They don't deserve respect from law abiding citizens. Yes, I do beleive the burgulars, and petty criminals can be rehabilitated...but the murderes and sex offenders...no way!

They as human beings disgust me...and yes I am judging them, they are social rejects...and the murders, yes they deserve in my opion to die. You commit murder, you go to Hell when you die, may as well speed the process up. Criminals deserve the maximum punishment...be it life in prison or death.

We are never going to agree on anything...so why not just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Let me say this. First of all, I am sorry for your loss. I... like you.... agree that we as humans need to properly punish those who commit crimes (including murder). Yes I agree that a murderer should be put to death. Where I object, is that he is going to hell. I believe anybody can repent their sins. Yes...even "Tookie". However as I explained in an earlier post, we can't read minds. How can we know who truly repented or who is merely putting up a facade in order to escape death. I am Jewish. In Jewish law this issue is actually discussed. & the conclusion is since we can't read minds, there is no way for us to know & hence we have to execute the murderer. G-D demanded from us humans to uphold His law. What follows after that is up to G-D. Again, I am sorry for the loss you experienced.

[jhath]

big shmooz... on this we have to agree to disagree... you certainly arent changing my beliefs and im certainly not going to change yours... thats the difference between christianity and judaism... so... according to judaism, of course im wrong.... according to christianity... im 100% right... and thast how i clearly labeled my post as being

[big shmooz]

big shmooz... on this we have to agree to disagree... you certainly arent changing my beliefs and im certainly not going to change yours... thats the difference between christianity and judaism... so... according to judaism, of course im wrong.... according to christianity... im 100% right... and thast how i clearly labeled my post as being

That's the cool thing. We can disagree & still respect each other & be friends.

[basballfanatik9]

TribeTime my friend,

This man killed FOUR people, and is also the Co-President of one of the most Notorious Street gangs, the Crips. Even if he didn't kill anybody, I'd still give him a death penalty for starting the Crips, because I don't know how the situation is up there in Ohio, but down here in South Florida, people are dieing daily due to gangs, such as the Bloods and the Crips, even the Latin Kings which we have down here as well. So even if he didn't personally kill anyone, he is killing other people by starting a gang, that goes around mainly killing people or disturbing the peace. In Example, Snoop Dogg, he killed this man, but he was never convicted, even though he did it. What gang was he part of? The Crips.

I rest my case, but that's my opinion.

BBF9

[MarkB]

So we have a homophobe wanting to save a murderer's life. Great. Not a personal attack just a factual observation.

I don't think TT was being homophobic, but, like you, he was simply pointing out the facts that homosexuality and true Christianity cannot possibly go hand-in-hand (so to speak). However, this is just the way I read it, based on his previous posts.

BBF9, you know, you totally contradicted yourself in your post. You choose to believe a jury that Tookie did kill 4 people, yet you choose not to believe another jury that Calvin Broadus didn't kill a person. Also, if you want to blame all gang deaths on one person, you might want to look a little further back than Tookie. There have been gangs for decades, when so-called blacks were still nbeing held in slavery. Ever seen any of those old black-and-white "gangster" films? What do you think those guys were doing and basing their films on?

[Kriegz]

I don't think TT was being homophobic, but, like you, he was simply pointing out the facts that homosexuality and true Christianity cannot possibly go hand-in-hand (so to speak). However, this is just the way I read it, based on his previous posts.

Exactly what I meant.

[ShesHotSheSteals]

I dont like capital punishment and the fact that the goverment CAN KILL YOU scares me.

I believe the government's job is to police society by instituting laws and keeping the uncivilized imprisioned away from the civilized therefore keeping the world a much safer place. They have zero right to determine whether or not we have the right to live. That is for a much higher power. Who? I dont know God, Ala, even our Mothers and Fathers have more right.

I personally would like to believe I live in a society that is above taking the life of another human being no matter how much they deserve not to live. I dont care if it costs me a bit more in tax dollars a human life, no matter how tainted, and the comfort of knowing the goverment cannot take what is not thiers is worth every penny.

For the record

I'm both pro life and pro choice

I'm not a vegan, but wish I was.

I'm a hypocrite and I'm not perfect

I'm human.

[MarkB]

Just to mention this, Arnold Schwarzenegger Stadium in Austria might be renamed due to the fact that he refused to grant lemency to Tookie Williams.

[MarkB]

An article I just read.

Farewell Tookie: Food For Thought Is Better Than A Meal

“They killed the teacher!†said Snoop Dogg at the funeral services for Stanley Tookie Williams December 20 at the Bethel A.M.E. Church in Los Angeles. Rev. Jesse Jackson, Bruce Gordon, Minister Tony Muhammad, Stan Muhammad, Rev. Dr. Lewis E. Logan II, Minister Lewis Farrakhan and Tony Robbins all listened as Snoop Dogg brought the packed Church to its feet with a poem dedicated to Tookie entitled “Till We Meet Again.†One line that caught my attention was when Snoop said, “Food for thought is better than a meal.†This phrase stuck with me, because it reminded me of man may not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedth from the mouth of the lord and coming from Snoop showed a level of maturity that I wish his Girls Gone Wild, pimps-up-hoes-down, gangsta nigga audiences would adopt.

And I am NOT being critical of Snoop at all! I’ve been watching Snoop settle his beefs with others, start programs in the hood for at-risk youth, seek God and denounce gang-banging publicly. But this is my point. When has a man done enough to be called rehabilitated? What must one do to be actually free from past wrongs? When is a man truly forgiven?

I arrived at the Bethel A.M.E. Church to a beautiful scene. Several blocks before we got to the Church helpful, pleasantly spoken, informative Black and Brown police officers were stationed at strategic corners directing traffic toward the Church. When we arrived at the Church we were greeted by the Fruit of Islam (F.O.I.) and escorted to the press balcony. There was literally nowhere else to be. Even members of Stanley Tookie Williams’ family were in the press balcony! When this was discovered, Rev. Dr. Logan II requested that the first ten rows of people give up their seats to these additional members of the Williams family and everyone promptly did what was asked.

The Church was so packed that many people were in another room outside of the main knave watching the proceedings on a huge flat screen television. When I walked into this room I saw Tookie on the screen saying, “If a man must fight, let it be to the death against the beast within himself. Win that battle? No man, no woman, no racial hatred, no system, no vindictiveness, and no Machiavellianism can ever defeat you! And then he said on behalf of the children; teach them how to avoid our destructive foot steps. Teach them to strive for a higher education. Teach them to promote peace. And teach them to focus on rebuilding the neighborhoods that you, others and I helped to destroy.†And I can’t front, I was renewed even in my own spirit. To know that one of the most significant outlaw figures in modern American history went from criminal minded to spiritual minded gives all of us (especially those on the frontlines of ministry work, counseling, mentoring and rehabilitation work) hope in the transformation of the human heart. That our work is not done in vain.

I was totally impressed with the organization and security of the F.O.I. Hundreds of people was jammed in the Church with even more people outside trying to get in yet the Church and the whole block itself (Western Ave) was at peace. It was beautiful.

But as beautiful as it was, the Church was still teeming with suspicion as to why a completely rehabilitated man could not be offered at least life in prison? How was Tookie (the co-founder of the famous street gang the Crips) who spent 24 years in prison, wrote nine anti-violence, anti-gang, anti-drug children’s books, received an honorary Doctor of Humane Letters degree from St. Moses the Black Theological Seminary, was nominated six times for the Nobel Peace Prize, and received the Presidential Call to Service Award from President George W. Bush for his volunteer efforts to help steer youth away from gang life not rehabilitated? There’s even an award-winning movie starring Jamie Foxx entitled “Redemption: The Stan Tookie Williams Story†that teaches the path of rehabilitation and forgiveness. All of this, in addition to his website and phone mentoring of young people from prison, and let us not forget his plea of innocence, could not have granted this man a stay of execution. He had to die? He was that dangerous to society? Well, no one at the funeral thought so.

“Tookie is dead,†said Rev. Jesse Jackson. “We must kill the idea of killing to stop killing.†Remembering his own prayer time with Tookie, Rev. Jackson quoted Tookie saying, “I admit I was a predator upon my people. We were programmed to attack Black people. Whites were safe around us; I will not be killed for what I did do, but for what I didn’t do. I’d rather die than lie to get clemency.†And the whole Church erupted in applause and cheering! It was like they were ALL used to this process of having to lie along with the police and the District Attorney in hopes of achieving lighter sentences or no jail time at all and Tookie represented that person that never snitched or sold out to the corruption of the Judicial system. I’d rather die than lie for clemency seemed to resonate with everyone there dealing with an already proven to be corrupt California corrections/prison system.

As Rev. Jesse Jackson brought to mind the fact that Charles Manson who is responsible for killing pregnant Sharon Tate and seven others is still alive in California on death row and that President John F. Kennedy’s assassin is also still alive, I was reading some of Tookie’s own words of transformation in a booklet that was being handed out throughout the Church. One paragraph read, “Its impossible for a discriminable mind to fathom the miraculous transition of a redeemed soul. Contrary to the popular misconception, redemption is not a biblical ethos, exclusive to saints, prophets, elitists or the holier-than-thou. It is of earthly accessibility through human initiative. I aver that the process of being redeemed is available to any individual regardless of gender, race, color, creed, social stratum or background. Yes, even a wretched Black man, akin to the former me, can transform and be redeemed.

As I read this, I couldn’t help asking myself over and over again, did Tookie have to die? Did Tookie have to die? Did Stan Tookie Williams really have to die? Son, husband, father of two, grandfather of three, minister, changed man. Was there no other way to pay that debt back to society other than the execution of a transformed man who held on to his claim of innocence all the way to the end? Tookie had to die? I don’t think so. However, I find myself at a peculiar crossroad in American history. First of all, it should be clear to all that the title Department of Corrections is false. No one entering the prison industrial complex is being rehabilitated or rather corrected. With Tookie’s death it seems that no matter what you do to correct your past errors, the American justice system will still show you no mercy. Once a criminal, always a criminal.

Secondly, the idea of an Austrian born White man using the American legal system to murder a Louisiana born Black man just doesn’t sit well with me. And I am not being selective or even prejudice here. But does Governor Schwarzenegger really know enough about American history, even African American history to have made a just decision on Stanley Tookie Williams’ life? Does Governor Schwarzenegger care anything about the message he is sending throughout the African American community, especially to African American youths? Stanley Tookie Williams’ murder by the State also proves the powerlessness of the African American community and its leadership. But I won’t get into that here.

Finally. In a time when Americas State and Federal agencies are being severely criticized for their seeming lack of care for the suffering of African Americans in wake of Hurricane Katrina, Governor Schwarzenegger missed an important opportunity to restore African American hope in the Department of Corrections and America as a whole. While African Americans are dying by the dozen in Iraq, Tookie’s execution by the same regime African Americans are defending seems a little hypocritical justice wise. In a time of so much racial disunity and mass American despair due to mass unemployment, now might not be a good time for Americans to be murdering Americans legally or illegally. Governor Schwarzenegger could have set a new precedent for our time as Americans by turning away from violence and granting Stanley Tookie Williams clemency. But that’s all over now. Violence wins again! Or did it?

Tookie admitted his wrongs and paid the price of total transformation. Before his execution he talked a lot about being redeemed, meaning to recover ownership of something by paying a specified sum for it. In a spiritual sense, meaning to restore to wholeness, to be saved from a sinful state of being, to return to honor and self-worth, to be free from guilt. In his last moments on earth Tookie wrote, “Here and now, I bear witness that God’s bequest of redemption has replenished me with a mission and revealed that the impossible is possible.†This is a strong affirmation for us today.

Stan Tookie Williams was murdered by the State of California on December 13, 2005. We will miss you, teacher.

You may be surprised as to who wrote it, too. I sure was.

[medric822]

who wrote it?

[Pirate]

Snoop

[MarkB]

Snoop

Would he refer to himself in the third person? I doubt it.

No, Snoop didn't write that.

[MaddiesDaddy]

Capital Punishment is f'ed up.

This is a free country and I completely respect this opinion. But my feeling on things like this are always...

How do I think I would feel if someone killed, raped, molested, tortured, etc either of my daughters, my wife, my Mom, my sister, my Dad...well you get the point.

Of course I never want to find out how I'd really feel...but to give a "What if..." answer....I'd want to pull the switch myself.

My faith doesn't want me to believe in the death penalty, but I have a very hard time believing the "God works in mysterious ways" theory....and if any of the above were to happen I would have some serious questions of my faith. Selfish I know, but that is how I feel.

I have no sympathy for guys like this. It'd be hypocritical of me to feel the way I do about something happening to my family but then not feel the same way when it happens to others.

Sorry for making a post like this on Christmas....I have been MIA for a while and have just come back to the forums on a regular basis and this is the first I have seen this thread.

Great topic for discussion. This is what makes this country great!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

[Kriegz]

Still, even if we want someone dead, it doesn't make it right.

[big shmooz]

Justice is what it's about. If one believes in G-D then by default they must follow G-D's wishes. G-D wishes that a murderer be put to death.

If one does not believe in G-D then the above I guess would not apply to one's thinking. Then the discussion would change to "if one should believe in G-D or not".

Of course (in my opinion) if one does not believe in G-D then murder does not exist in the first place & there would be absolutely nothing inheriently wrong about killing others anyway. We are then simply just another animal & with animals there is no right or wrong. There just "is".

[Pirate]

Justice is what it's about. If one believes in G-D then by default they must follow G-D's wishes. G-D wishes that a murderer be put to death.

If one does not believe in G-D then the above I guess would not apply to one's thinking. Then the discussion would change to "if one should believe in G-D or not".

Of course (in my opinion) if one does not believe in G-D then murder does not exist in the first place & there would be absolutely nothing inheriently wrong about killing others anyway. We are then simply just another animal & with animals there is no right or wrong. There just "is".

AMEN and cosigned