KenDammit Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 As far as Bonds goes, sure his homeruns are nice, but he's a .298 hitter, and doesn't do much at all in the field, routine at best. He's one of the greats, but he's probably not in the top 20 to 30 of the best to ever play the game, in my opinion, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpmath Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Sure, and we differ there. No big deal. What I don't get is why people can just dismiss what he's done because they don't like him. When you show me the positive test results, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, but just because the guy isn't a role model doesn't mean his accomplishments are any less. Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, Ted Williams, Ken Griffey Jr. No wait.. not that last one. He's the total OPPOSITE. Just wanted to see if I could **** anyone off with that. Come on. Admit it. It got your defenses up! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpmath Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Anyway. The .300 myth is a little tired, don't you think? As am I. Good night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpmath Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Oh wait. This article HERE does a good job of getting at what I'm trying to get at. * 170 walks, 73 home runs, same season. "The guy has almost hit 80 home runs in a year -- a year and a week. He's got as many home runs in one year as I've got my whole career, in 23 years." - Tim Raines Then Curt Schilling, after calling Bonds 'hands down the best player in the game today' goes on to make this interesting point: "Barry is a superstar in any era. But I don't know if he hits 70 riding trains, playing in those old huge parks, with a ball that's twice as soft as the new balls, with the older larger strike zone. And let's face it, 15 years ago, you could drop a hitter and never think twice about it. ... The game is just so different today. But for my money, there's no one even close to him right now." * He didn't just make the 30-30 Club, he had a 30-30 decade. * Eight Gold Gloves * .434 OBP for a whole decade. * Three MVP's. LOL, but you guys will love this part, I'm sure: "You don't really see people improve this much this late in their career," Maddux says. "You might see a player improve that much between his first year and his fifth year. But you don't usually see it between his 10th and his 15th year. That's what amazes me." - Greg Maddux And: And one coach, speaking not for attribution, questions whether a man as disliked as Bonds has made himself ought to be considered the centerpiece player of his generation. Which is totally irrelevant to his baseball skills. (Total Baseball had Bonds fifth before 2001, but would now rank him second, behind Ruth and ahead of Mays) So, I'm saying he's the best, I just find it amazing that people can basically say, oh well, I don't like him, so his accomplishments don't really mean anything. When all the facts state otherwise. Another good quote from Bobby Cox: "Is he better than Babe Ruth?" wonders Bobby Cox. "Hell, I don't know. Who does know? Barry never pitched and won 20 games. I know that. But in his era, there ain't nobody close. And I mean nobody." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpmath Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 LOL, sorry, that should read: I'm NOT saying he's the best. Although it would seem otherwise. I'm saying he at least deserves consideration. At least. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpmath Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Ok, one last thing I promise. If Barry does go down for steroids, do you really think he's going to be the only player of importance in the past 10 years to go down? No no. Can anyone tell me who these Homerun numbers belong to? 40-36-66!-63!-50!-64!-49! Not that I'm implying anything, as I'd just rather think everyone did it on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarlinsFan Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 wow, i wasn't aware of ruth being a pitcher, giving just 10 HR's in 1000+ innings, big feat. About assuming players on steriods just cause they were skinny a decade back Weight lifting and working out for a decade will show improvement over the years on the physical body, but when it comes to bonds, most likly on steroids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpmath Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Sorry, I can't stop, found this on some obscure board, posted by a user, so I can't take credit: Since you all seem to think he started taking roids when he bulked over the past few years, how does that explain all his accomplishments prior to that? You know, the 4 MVP trophies, all the Gold Gloves and All Star apearances, the 40/40 season and the first and only 400/400 man? Link is Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmac Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 i don't think there would be much of a fuss about it, afterall it is Bonds and he likes to yap about stuff...but, I just find it funny that he likes to talk the smack, but when someone says anything about him, he's pissy and whining about how he's the best to ever play baseball and all that nonsense. He may be hitting a lot of homeruns, but as far as the best player, I don't think he's done what Babe Ruth did on both sides of the ball, or Ty Cobb, or Honus Wagner, or Tris Speaker, or Jimmie Foxx, or Ted Williams, or Lou Gehrig, or Joe Dimaggio, Joe Jackson, Satchel Paige, Stan Musial, or the feats of Nolan Ryan, Warran Spahn, Cy Young (since when did you hear of the Barry Bonds award???), Lefty Grove, Koufax, Fergie Jenkins, Mel Ott, Pete Rose, Cal Ripken Jr., Mickey Mantle, Ozzie Smith, Walter Johnson...I could name tons of names in front of him. Barry Bonds can hit, beyond that, he's just a good-great player..but i would like to see his numbers with out the juice. I was going to read this whole thread, but that one just set off my bullshit detector, and I had to respond before I continued. If you think that all of those players are better than Barry Bonds, than you know nothing about baseball. The fact is, the man will finish his career with a minimum of 680 home runs, and steroids or not, that's a huge accomplishment. I don't care how big the guy is, the steroids didn't help his bat speed or pitch judgment, which are WAY more important than strength. My proof? Ken Griffey Jr. About 7 years ago he was as good as Bonds is now, and he was skinny as hell. And those 300 stolen bases? I don't think steroids helped those a bit. Muhammed Ali was even cockier and an even bigger as*hole than Bonds. He's still the greatest boxer ever. So is using steroids wrong? Yes. Does it put a little asterisk by his records? Of course. But does it change that he's one of the top 5 players of all time? Of course not. Being an as*hole on steroids doesn't mean he isn't damn good, because believe it or not, steroids don't help that much, and your personality should not taint your accomplishments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KerryW Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Ok, one last thing I promise. If Barry does go down for steroids, do you really think he's going to be the only player of importance in the past 10 years to go down? No no. Can anyone tell me who these Homerun numbers belong to? 40-36-66!-63!-50!-64!-49! Not that I'm implying anything, as I'd just rather think everyone did it on their own. quote] Now why would you go ahead and involve Sosa in this?? No one is accusing him of any steroid usage like Mcgwire, Giambi, Sheffield, Bonds etc. are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodyBucs Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I love Barry (I started to be a fan of his back in '92 when they almost knocked out the stinkin' Braves), although I am sorry he chose to make the comment as there was really no point. As far as Boston and the BoSox there is definitely a race card in that city. The Sox had a chance to sign Mays in the early 50's and the Yawkey's said no because they didn't wanted any blacks on their team. In fact the Sox were the LAST team in MLB to have a black man on their roster, so they were behind the times. I'm not saying John Henry is that type of man now, but there is some underlying history that obviously Barry was hinting at. Next time maybe Barry will be a man of few words and save the controversy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodyBucs Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I agree Sammy is a muscular man himself, but the fans love him so they turn their cheek... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamasutra Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 If you think that all of those players are better than Barry Bonds, than you know nothing about baseball. The fact is, the man will finish his career with a minimum of 680 home runs, and steroids or not, that's a huge accomplishment. I don't care how big the guy is, the steroids didn't help his bat speed or pitch judgment, which are WAY more important than strength. My proof? Ken Griffey Jr. About 7 years ago he was as good as Bonds is now, and he was skinny as hell. And those 300 stolen bases? I don't think steroids helped those a bit. Muhammed Ali was even cockier and an even bigger as*hole than Bonds. He's still the greatest boxer ever. So is using steroids wrong? Yes. Does it put a little asterisk by his records? Of course. But does it change that he's one of the top 5 players of all time? Of course not. Being an as*hole on steroids doesn't mean he isn't damn good, because believe it or not, steroids don't help that much, and your personality should not taint your accomplishments. Cannot agree more...very well said.. No matter how big a jerk, now matter if he takes roids (which he definitly does/did), he's a damn fine baseball player, no one can take that away. Beefing up wether legaly or illegaly doesn't make someone an instant homerun hitter, an instant base stealer etc.. You've got to have the raw talent to start with, and Bonds has that plus alot more. I still hate the guy though and his dumbass comments/attitude..but I respect the player tremendously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpup Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I don't know if Bonds used steroids or not, but anybody that thinks that he is any different than Sammy Sosa is nuts. Look at a picture of Sammy in 1990 or before and then look at him now. There is absolutely zero difference between the two guys. Barry Bonds is the best player that you have ever seen or will ever see in your lifetime. You may not like it, but it's the truth. Also, there is no chance that he is dumb enough to be using them now. How is he hitting all those home runs this year? Another thing, why is it when a baseball player bulks up he is on steroids and when a football player bulks up he is just working hard? Sammy Sosa 6'0" 220 lbs Barry Bonds 6'2" 230 lbs Bret Favre 6'2" 225 lbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmac Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Another thing, why is it when a baseball player bulks up he is on steroids and when a football player bulks up he is just working hard? Sammy Sosa 6'0" 220 lbs Barry Bonds 6'2" 230 lbs Bret Favre 6'2" 225 lbs Well, that's because working out in football is a requirement, and the NFL tests steroids. Having said that, you do have a point. Brock Lesnar, the former WWE wrestler that is going to the NFL this year, passed a roids test. That's right, that guy passed a roids test. I also heard that Barry Bonds works out with Jerry Rice, who is an insane workout fanatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenDammit Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I was going to read this whole thread, but that one just set off my bullshit detector, and I had to respond before I continued. If you think that all of those players are better than Barry Bonds, than you know nothing about baseball. The fact is, the man will finish his career with a minimum of 680 home runs, and steroids or not, that's a huge accomplishment. I don't care how big the guy is, the steroids didn't help his bat speed or pitch judgment, which are WAY more important than strength. My proof? Ken Griffey Jr. About 7 years ago he was as good as Bonds is now, and he was skinny as hell. And those 300 stolen bases? I don't think steroids helped those a bit. Muhammed Ali was even cockier and an even bigger as*hole than Bonds. He's still the greatest boxer ever. So is using steroids wrong? Yes. Does it put a little asterisk by his records? Of course. But does it change that he's one of the top 5 players of all time? Of course not. Being an as*hole on steroids doesn't mean he isn't damn good, because believe it or not, steroids don't help that much, and your personality should not taint your accomplishments. Actually I know plenty about baseball. If you think that players who changed the game aren't better than Barry Bonds as far as being an overall player, then you're nuts. Barry Bonds hasn't done anything for the game besides hit a few home runs and draw some fans. These guys MADE the game, Barry Bonds is just playing it. He is NOT the best ever baseball player to put on a uniform. When he can do all that Babe Ruth did, in the time that he did it, in the parks that he did it in, against the people he did it against..then you can call him the best ever. Til then, he's just a beefed up hitter who's riding coattails of pedigree in my opinion. Do I think Barry is ONE of the best to ever play the game, yes I do. 680 HR is nice and all, but thats ALL he does. BTW, bonds hasn't stolen 30 bases since 98, I believe...its not like he's really making a run while hitting all these homeruns, and don't say he isn't getting on base, we know how many times he gets walked. If you don't think Steroids don't help bat speed, then YOU don't understand what the drug does. It helps speed in every department, why do you think people take it? An athlete doesn't take it to look muscular, they take it because it makes them quicker, faster, stronger, better. So like I said, those players are ALL better than Barry Bonds for being the best player ever. When you know about the history of baseball, then tell me they aren't. But a man who goes from nothing, to hitting some homeruns is suddenly the best player ever. Its because as a society, we've forgotten about the little things, and if you don't make the big bang, you're not that good. Don't believe the media hype, who draw interest to players to get more viewers. Barry Bonds will never be the best player ever, because he is just not able to do what Ruth did, or what Ty Cobb did, or what Mickey Mantle did, its just not true. Oh yeah, how does a guy jump from 49 homeruns to 73 in one year if he's already had this amazing ability to select pitches?????? Then fall down to 40's again after the steroid news popped up? and another note, Sosa has done it too, Maybe he took Andro, but he took something, and i'm done. "bullshit meter" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenDammit Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 http://baseball-almanac.com/legendary/lisab100.shtml check that out, from people who know more than ANY of us...and before Barry hit his one year wonder of 73. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpmath Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Lou Gehrig #2? ... Uh. Right. Mark McGwire, ahead of Barry Bonds, in 1999, I don't even think he was better than Bonds THEN. Now? Not even close. And it isn't just the 73 home runs, which seems to be the fact you're ignoring. 6 MVP Awards, 8 Gold Gloves, 12 All-Star games (thought that doesn't really mean much) .433 All-Time OBP, 8th all-time. .602 Slugging, 7th all-time, 1941 Runs, 9th all-time, 2070 walks, 2nd all time, 500 Stole Bases, best Power/Speed number all time. I've already conceded that Barry Bonds is probably not the best baseball player ever. Infact after all the reading I did on it last night, I've come to agree with the people who say it's probably not completey possibe to compare them. However, the stats show him being one the best players ever to play the game. The fact that people don't like him just shows how people can be ignorant to suit their needs or feelings. [i don't mean ignorant as rudely as it sounds. I'm seriously not trying to get in a big argument here, I just don't get how people can deny the facts. He was the nicest guy in the world, and on juice (which I'm not saying he is ) you guys would all love him!.] That being said, GO BARRY! BEAT HANK'S RECORD! [PPS, I'm actually enjoying this discussion, despite a few slips into quasi-personal attacks, we've kept it pretty civil, and good points are being made. Like the point that Barry Bonds is one of the best players ever. ) [Also, kkkerrywood34... that was a damn hilarious post! ] Now why would you go ahead and involve Sosa in this?? No one is accusing him of any steroid usage like Mcgwire, Giambi, Sheffield, Bonds etc. are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baseballfans Posted June 20, 2004 Author Share Posted June 20, 2004 Wow I didn't expect this 1 post will get so much discussion. This is good that means U guy care about baseball, the game we all love so much. Rather U hate or love bond, my orginally intention was not just about him. I really want to know if what bond said have any validities. Is Boston really that Racist? Because I am Yankees fans I expect Sox fans to be litttle disrepectful when they were seating at Yankee Stadium. What they say to the crowds when I was there I dare not to mention here. Have anyone been to Fenway or boston and experienced racism? I just feel Bond who don't live there or play there before have a right to judge people that way that all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee4Life Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Rather U hate or love bond, my orginally intention was not just about him. I really want to know if what bond said have any validities. Have anyone been to Fenway or boston and experienced racism? I just feel Bond who don't live there or play there before have a right to judge people that way that all. The name is BONDS, not BOND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Bonds is a juice monkey. I mean it was reportedly said his hat size grew two sizes bigger in 2001 alone. The fact that he was a skinny runt when he came into the league and then over the last 5 years he has balloned into the 200+ weight area. Bonds makes me sick. Also has. I hated the guy when i was a fan of baseball. I come back to like the game and still see his fat *** walking up the plate and swinging at garbage pitches so he can get homers(does he ever hit for average anymore?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmac Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I don't really like your point about the pitchers, kendammit. You can't compare everyday players with pitchers, it's just a totally different category. It's not like there's a strikeouts-home runs or games played to innings pitched conversion table. I don't think Bonds is the best ever. Here are my lists. Pitchers: 1.Koufax 2.Ryan 3.Clements 4.Spahn 5.Young Everyday: 1.Ruth 2.Cobb 3.Mays 4.Williams 5.Bonds Gehrig #2? Yeah right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamasutra Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 *cough*mantle*cough* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yammer Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I don't really like your point about the pitchers, kendammit. You can't compare everyday players with pitchers, it's just a totally different category. It's not like there's a strikeouts-home runs or games played to innings pitched conversion table. I don't think Bonds is the best ever. Here are my lists. Pitchers: 1.Koufax 2.Ryan 3.Clements 4.Spahn 5.Young Everyday: 1.Ruth 2.Cobb 3.Mays 4.Williams 5.Bonds Gehrig #2? Yeah right.You pick Bonds over Gehrig as an everday? That is the most retarded thing I ever heard. Gerhig didnt miss a game in over 2100 appearances. Bonds misses a game when he has a headache or a hangnail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenDammit Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I don't really like your point about the pitchers, kendammit. You can't compare everyday players with pitchers, it's just a totally different category. It's not like there's a strikeouts-home runs or games played to innings pitched conversion table. I don't think Bonds is the best ever. Here are my lists. Pitchers: 1.Koufax 2.Ryan 3.Clements 4.Spahn 5.Young Everyday: 1.Ruth 2.Cobb 3.Mays 4.Williams 5.Bonds Gehrig #2? Yeah right. This is my point..theres only one person who's done it all, who hit more homeruns than everyone but one player, who also had an amazing pitching career for 10 seasons. Thats Babe Ruth, you can't beat that...its almost impossible now. The other pitchers I listed as being the best, thats because they had a major influence on the game and the way it was/is played. Lou Gehrig AND Mickey Mantle are both better than bonds and Mays as far as all time bests go. The game isn't just about stats, if that was the case, there wouldn't be games, just paperwork being exchanged. Its how they played the game, what they did in it, for it, to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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