Bond said. "Boston the town of Racist"

[Guest]

You say that Mantle and Ruth both are better than Bond? Well, Bond could of been one of the greatest .. but he wasn't present then. Its just a matter of the time period..Barry is best now..while Mantle and Ruth was best back then.. Ther is really no way to compare..The games are much diff. for Example: Pitchers back then threw way more pitches than present day...and How they didn't have steriods back then .. ( hopefully not :shock: ). IF BB uses steriods then maybe its a fluke..but..if he doesn't..hes one of the great. 50 years from now...he mite be mentioned to be as good as Ruth..and there is no doubt that could happen. Thats my point of view.

[KenDammit]

why will he be as good as Babe Ruth?

One stat doesn't make him.

I doesn't see how anyone can argue against Babe Ruth being the best to ever play the game. He hit homeruns in parks MUCH bigger than ANY park today. He also pitched AND played outfield and first base. Coulda been and shoulda been don't fly in any argument. Someone can say he's the best in the game today, theres nothing to refute that whatsoever, but all time, not a chance..not in my book, not ever

btw, they didn't have gold glove awards, and most of the other awards back in the day.

[MarlinsFan]

nice, Mickey Mantle, was rated #12 best player of baseball, hes also #12 in the carrer home run list with 536

[jpup]

you guys are very silly.

BARRY BONDS, IT'S BONDS........GET IT, BONDS.

IT'S NOT BOND

as for yammer, you have no idea what you are talking about. You said, "Does he not hit for average anymore?" He is batting .361. That shows me that you watch very little baseball. You said, "he swings at garbage pitches just to get a home run." He has 96 walks. Those two statements alone make any argument that you have null and void.

Whoever said that he was nothing before he hit 73, well, he was the best baseball player on the planet before then too.

Here is my list of the top 10 of all-time:

1. Babe Ruth

2. Ty Cobb

3. Willie Mays

4. Ted Williams

5. Mickey Mantle

6. Hank Aaron

7. Barry Bonds

8. Stan Musial

9. Rogers Hornsby

10. Jimmie Foxx

You could argue that any of them are the best of all-time. There isn't a sure answer to the question, but it would be hard to say that Babe Ruth wasn't the best. Joe DiMaggio could be placed in there somewhere as well. His career was cut short due to 4 years in the military.

[sharpmath]

The game isn't just about stats, if that was the case, there wouldn't be games, just paperwork being exchanged. Its how they played the game, what they did in it, for it, to it.

Actually, I beg to differ. The game is ABOUT stats. One stat inparticular. Runs.

And further more, as previously stated, Bonds does hit for average, not that it's stat the matters a whole lot.

I think more revealing is the all-time .433 OBP%, tops among active players and 8th All-Time, behind the amazing Bill Joyce, who gets my vote for best player of all time. (Actually not, I was just looking at the list, and I had no idea who he was.)

Also, slugging in his career at .602, behind only Todd Helton among active players, and 7th all-time.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Barry Bonds is one of the best players of all-time. And if people want to let their personal feelings towards him as a human being make them think he isn't one of the best players to ever *PLAY* (not 'Make Good' or 'Be Pleasant while doing' or 'Not juiced up on steroids ) well, I guess that's the way it has to be.

One stat doesn't make him.

You keep coming pack to this point KenDammit, and it's obviously not the truth at all. I count 12 catagories that he was in the Top 10 of, ALL-TIME, as of the end of last season.

[sharpmath]

To be fair, I checked this Babe Ruth guy you've all been talking about out.

Using the same statistical catagories as with Bonds, Ruth is top 10 in 14 catagories.

This reminds me a little of the Moneyball Debate.

You've got the people who go: This is what the stats say.

And the people who go: He looks this way, or thinks this way, and is therefore this...

Incidentally, Ruth sits 98th all-time on the HOF Standards PITCHING list, tied with David Wells and close to Bob Lemon, Hal Newhouser, Orel Hershiser, Lefty Gomez and Dennis Eckersley, just to name a few.

Also, Urban Shocker is the best name ever.

[sharpmath]

I'm really tired and need to sleep, but I just across a quote from

http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/neyer_rob/42798.html

Article from ESPN.

There will be some -- even some among you, I'll bet -- who find this shocking. How can some middle-aged writer with thick glasses and three kids have the audacity to reduce a baseball player's season, reduce his career, to a single number?

To which I would reply, we all do it every day. If I throw, say, "Greg Maddux" and "Bobby Witt" out there, what do you think of? Do you think of their families and their sophisticated senses of humor and their golf games? Or do you think of numbers?

This was in relation to Win Shares, but it expressed my point very well.

[KenDammit]

you can twist the words all you want, but the game ISN'T about stats. it takes ONE run to win a game, that can and often does come from any person in the lineup. there is NO sport where stats matter. Its all out there on the field, and anything can happen. Since you brought it up though, last year..Bonds was 50th in RBI with 90...a lifetime average of .298 isn't exactly stellar in my opinion. I am sure some would beg to differ, even though its not even in the top 100 lifetime, and if I'm not mistaken, not even in the top 30 among active players. We won't mention that he is 55th in career strikeouts, or 6th-ish among active players.

the point that *I* am trying to make, is that people want to call him the best to ever play the game, because he hit 73 homeruns in one year. If he was around that number for several year's I'd give it more consideration. I know he's won gold gloves(while i still contend that most of the greats never had a chance to win gold gloves. How many would say, Ty Cobb, have if he were able to get them?) and MVP awards, which ty nor Babe could get(Babe had a chance the last 5 years of his career). The point is, comparing awards to legends awards doesn't exactly work, because they weren't in existence then, the numbers always were, when they were recorded, and thats the bottom line to me.

[KenDammit]

btw, career numbers wise, Ruth has Bonds beat in both OBP and slugging, by pretty good margins in both, especially slugging.

[yankees1979]

http://baseball-almanac.com/legendary/lisab100.shtml

check that out, from people who know more than ANY of us...and before Barry hit his one year wonder of 73.

so i guess roger maris used steroids back in his one year wonder of 61 in 1961. :roll:

[KenDammit]

so i guess roger maris used steroids back in his one year wonder of 61 in 1961. :roll:

don't misunderstand the meaning of it before you go trying to be a smartass :roll:

[Kmac]

Okay kendammit, since you're so all-knowing, why don't you tell me how all those players on your list changed the game of baseball?

[MarlinsFan]

Babe Ruth contributted with the handle at the end of the bat(someone would have come up with it if he hadnt i suppose)

[Wolverineman]

Wow, I should have gotten into this thread sooner. Very interesting read. Personally, I hate Barry Bonds. He's a jerk, an ***, a steroid user, and has very little respect for the game. However I am able to put my feelings for him aside when talking about the greatest players ever. Is he up there? Absolutely. Top 10? No. Top 50? No. Top 100? Maybe.

There is one thing I'll give Bonds, he's very very smart. He knows how to get under people's skin, and he knows how to use the game to his advantage. He took steroids before the testing got going. He uses his 1000 lbs of armor on his elbow to let him stand right over the plate. He wanted to be known as the greatest player ever, so he wanted to make a run at the homerun title(s). I personally would have more respect for him if he had kept playing his game before, good defense, stealing bases and hitting homeruns. He may be very smart, but he's not the best baseball player ever. He's not even the best baseball player during his era as his position(LF). I'll take Rickey Henderson over Barry Bonds any day of the week(Granted, Rickey was at his best during the 80s, but I consider this 'era' to be 1980-now).

Overall with ranking Bonds, I think people overrate his last couple years. Roids+ElbowArmor is gonna do that, turn a very good player into an absolutely great player. Take away those last couple years and there would be very few people saying he's even up in the top 10 all time.

[MarlinsFan]

with all bonds has done i dont think he has managed to actually hit a homerun as far as those of mickey mantle

[Riddick]

I don't hate Bonds he is a good player but personally I think Mcgwire was better

[schitonk]

firstly, bonds was plenty more efficient at the plate than mcgwire

secondly, because some people think bonds used steroids etc, is a crank doesn't make boston any less of a racist/segregated town, which is what this thread was about.

i believe what he says about boston because i've heard it coming from black sox players as well, namely jim rice and ellis burks in the 80's. that and i live in boston.

[ezorn33]

Boston in the past, maybe.

But there are plenty of black/non-white stars now that enjoy huge popularity: Troy Brown, Paul Pierce, and so on.

[Riddick]

I decided to make this sig

[sharpmath]

Ok, I get it now, it's totally pointless, people are going to let their feelings towards Bonds as person make them think he's not a great player. Fine.

Also KenDammit, you really need to stop beating 2 dead horses here:

1. I never said I considered Bonds great because of just his Home Runs, infact I've PROVEN otherwise, but you keep going back to that.

2. I've already said Babe Ruth is probably the greatest player. You're like a broken record.

Oh, and also, noticed how in my posts I compared Bonds and Ruth in stats, you know, trying to give the whole picture.

Just to show how YOU, and most people who don't give Bonds the credit he is due, decide to point out only the stats to serve your purpose, I will now make a more fair comparsion.

CAREER STRIKEOUTS/CAREER GAMES/CAREER AVERAGE

Barry Bonds - 1387(55th)/2569 games/0.539

Babe Ruth - 1330/(70th)/2503 games/0.531

WHAT!? A DIFFERENCE OF 0.008 STRIKEOUTS PER GAME?!

Babe Ruth struckout 57 less in a career that spanned 66 less games?

WOW! BONDS IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO RUTH!!!

Sorry about the sarcasm, but what your saying is just silly.

Now, I did all I could to not turn this into a personal attack, I said Ruth was probably the best, I happily showed how good Ruth was. All you can do is try and point out stats (that aren't even TRUE!) and then you say something like this:

The point is, comparing awards to legends awards doesn't exactly work, because they weren't in existence then, the numbers always were, when they were recorded, and thats the bottom line to me.

Despite PREVIOUSLY saying this

you can twist the words all you want, but the game ISN'T about stats. it takes ONE run to win a game, that can and often does come from any person in the lineup. there is NO sport where stats matter.

It's like your so enraged that Bonds is as great as he is, that you can't even think straight. And by the way, Bonds was 12th on the active list for Strikeouts, that's like me saying Ruth is 7th-ish in all-time Slugging.

Want to know the truth? Instead of looking a jerk who invents numbers to suit his need, I'll show you the comparsion! But first, what you decided to spout off:

btw, career numbers wise, Ruth has Bonds beat in both OBP and slugging, by pretty good margins in both, especially slugging.

[Now this is AGAIN, Kendammit, missing the point that I agreed Babe Ruth was probably the best over 3-jillion posts ago. [Did you like that 3 jillion, I figured if you can invent numbers, so can I]

Slugging%

Babe Ruth - .690 (1st all-time) (Tops 13 years in a row, from '18-31)

Barry Bonds - .602 (7th all-time)

So he has him beat by 7%, good for him. Bonds is still 7th all-time.

OBP%

Babe Ruth - .4739 (2nd all-time)

Barry Bonds - .4332 (8th all-time)

This time, 4% is the different.

So, as I've already stated, RUTH IS BETTER THAN BONDS, FINE.

But denying that Barry Bonds is not of the greatest players to play, and entirely in Ruth's league, and then spouting random, un-true and unchecked facts to back you up. Well, that's pretty silly.

You were (amazingly) right about one thing.

Bonds is not in the top 100 all-time in Average.

And we all know even if you do EVERYTHING else great, if you can't hit for a .300 Average (because Average is SUCH an important stat, infact, I think Alex Sanchez is going to be the greatest player ever because of his average) then all your other accomplishments mean nothing.

Ok, one last thing before I go:

you can twist the words all you want,

Yeah, that's pretty rich, Kendammit, since all I did was COMPARE the stats of both men, while you went and on about made up numbers to try and support your Barry bashing.

In closing, I'd like to state that I did ALL I could to keep this from becoming an attack on a person or a baseball player, but when people start listing off fake numbers to try and prove their point, it's time to call them to task on it.

[Apologizes for the length of the post, there was just too many errors to point out.]

[All stats are as of the end of the 2003 season]

[Yankee4Life]

Yeah, that's pretty rich, Kendammit, since all I did was COMPARE the stats of both men, while you went and on about made up numbers to try and support your Barry bashing.

[All stats are as of the end of the 2003 season]

You know why people do "Barry bashing"? BECAUSE HE DESERVES IT.

The trouble with baseball is that their top star who gets the most press (Bonds) is also the most despised player in the game because of his attitude.

Who does the NFL have? Maybe Micheal Vick or Donovan McNabb. Those two come to mind as top NFL players. Both of those guys are easily approachable and represent the NFL well. Bonds is something baseball puts up with because of the people who go to see him and of his home runs.

I'd like to have seen Bonds face Bob Gibson with all that armour he wears at bat. Gibson would still drill the piece of *&%#.

[Yammer]

you guys are very silly.

BARRY BONDS, IT'S BONDS........GET IT, BONDS.

IT'S NOT BOND

as for yammer, you have no idea what you are talking about. You said, "Does he not hit for average anymore?" He is batting .361. That shows me that you watch very little baseball. You said, "he swings at garbage pitches just to get a home run." He has 96 walks. Those two statements alone make any argument that you have null and void.

Whoever said that he was nothing before he hit 73, well, he was the best baseball player on the planet before then too.

Here is my list of the top 10 of all-time:

1. Babe Ruth

2. Ty Cobb

3. Willie Mays

4. Ted Williams

5. Mickey Mantle

6. Hank Aaron

7. Barry Bonds

8. Stan Musial

9. Rogers Hornsby

10. Jimmie Foxx

You could argue that any of them are the best of all-time. There isn't a sure answer to the question, but it would be hard to say that Babe Ruth wasn't the best. Joe DiMaggio could be placed in there somewhere as well. His career was cut short due to 4 years in the military.

ok was your comment meant to insult me? Cuz I know **** about baseball. All I ever see is Bonds hit for homers, so kiss my fuckin *** you cocksucking hick. So sorry not everyone has the time(read: unemployed) to follow some juice monkey.

[sharpmath]

It's funny, because I didn't even get into this because the 'racist' part of it. I think issues like that are just too stupid to handle.

Was Barry Bonds wrong for saying it? (If he indeed did say it)

Of course. Even if it was true (and this is the only non-factual claim I'm going to make here) which I have to say it is SO obviously NOT true, it's not something you just spout of and say.

Does it make Barry Bonds any less of a Human Being? Yes, In my opinion it does. He could be a much more easy going person, less inflammatory, more 'giving' or whatever, but..

Does it make his accomplishments as a ballplayer any less valid?

Absolutley not. He's done what he has done, and just because he has pissed people off doing it, doesn't really mean a damn thing, except that people are petty and willing to let their emotions override their rational thought.

[As far as the whole Steroids issue goes, two things, 1) Very good points made about things such as SMARTS and HAND-TO-EYE, etc. that steroids would not help. 2) There's no proof. And until it can be proven, you're all just grasping at straws. So if Barry Bonds is ever proven to have taken steroids, what then? Then maybe I wouldn't put him in the same class as Babe Ruth. But I'd still consider him one of the better players ever to play the game.]

[Hmm. Now what was I talking about again....]

[sharpmath]

You know why people do "Barry bashing"? BECAUSE HE DESERVES IT.

Way to take the quote out of context there Yankee.

I was accusing KenDammit of inventing numbers to bash Barry Bonds.

Did I say it was wrong to bash Barry Bonds for being a class A jerk?

No.

I said making up numbers to try and bash Barry Bonds is pretty silly.

Does Bonds amazing play make him any less of a jerk? No.

Does Bonds amazing jerkiness make him any less of a great player? No. Unless your so upset about it, you decide to let it.

And, once again, to prove I'm not trying to stack the cards in Bonds favor, I found THIS ARTICLE about the whole fiasco, as well as few others.

Going through the search engine, I also found a few messages boards, where people were actually accusing other people of being racist because they thought Ruth was better than Bonds.

As I stated. That's just too stupid to even handle. Anyone who talks or thinks like that usually has racisim and hate on their minds.

"So that means Barry Bonds does, huh?!!" you scream triumphantly, trying to latch on to anything that might be bad about Bonds.

Yes. It does.

But he's still one the best ballplayers ever.

[Although Barry Bonds may well be ON the best baseball players ever, I edited the last line to read ONE, thank you]

[sharpmath]

ok was your comment meant to insult me? Cuz I know [naughty word] about baseball. All I ever see is Bonds hit for homers, so kiss my fuckin *** you cocksucking hick. So sorry not everyone has the time(read: unemployed) to follow some juice monkey.

Wow Yammer, way to turn this into a Grade-4 playground where we shout unintelligent insults back and forth at each other.

Your bright future in this world is really shining through.