funeral interruptions

[D-Unit]

i saw on the news that people are standing nearby military funerals for soldiers that have been killed. these protestors were holding signs that said "these soldiers deserved to die" or "dead fags" and "america is doomed."

i just wanted some thoughts on whether these people are simply expressing their freedom to express or simply stupid ******* idiots that have no respect for the families that are right there grieving their loved one's death and people are rubbing it in their face and telling them that they deserved to die. i guess you know my opinion.

[Sean O]

Who says there is a "whether?" it's both, they have the right to do whatever they want, but they also deserve to die in a fire.

America is doomed though, they got that right.

[D-Unit]

good point. everything is doomed when it comes down to the end. the human race will eventually die out, supposedly. then again, supposedly around 98 or 99 percent of all living things in the history of everything are dead by now so were up against some pretty steep odds if this is true lol.

[Sean O]

No, I mean we're doomed because Bush is a horrible president and our nation is getting dumber by the second. That's the real issue here.

[rickel2]

war=debt=profit for a select few. everyone else is expendable. poor soldiers. wasted lives. we poor americans - so gullible and sleepy. we don't see what's going on right in front of our noses.

methinks the media is showing this to foment more divison among the people. divide, conquer and distract take away the standard living but give them some controversy so they don't think about it.

[lautrec]

I live in Kansas, and witnessed Fred Phelps and his America haters picket the funeral of of young man who died in the service of his country. About 300 bikers arrived, and screened the church from the protesters ( if you want to call them that). Those are the facts.

I was simply awed by the disrespect these people showed, to a young man who stepped up, honoring the tradition of those who have served previously, and gauranteed us our freedom and WAY of life, which includes massive consumption of oil.

I too have served, and I did it becuase I believe that America is worth preserving, and felt a responsibility to continue in the tradition of those who paid the ultimate price ahead of me.

Sitting in our safe houses, safe towns, safe areas (as some of us do...not all, of course), we have the luxury to discredit, disrespect and complain about soliders, our president, our congress, etc.

I hear young people all the time telling me how stupid president Bush is, or how stupid the war is, or how stupid people are for supporting it and its troops. I hear this commentary from those who have never sereved, never sacrificed.

Yes, America, in its current state, is doomed. If the future generations don't learn how to handle conflict successfully, then this experiment is doomed.

[Dagger147]

Being ex-military, I find the practice of protesting at a soldier's funeral disgraceful and very disrespectful. My guess is that some people forget that our forefathers were also soldiers.

The Soldier

It is the soldier, not the reporter,

who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,

who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,

who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,

who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier,

who salutes the flag,

who serves under the flag,

and whose coffin is draped by the flag,

who allows the protester to burn the flag.

By Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

[BigDaddyCool]

My guess is that what you might have seen was coverage of a protest that has been repeated at the funerals of dead soldiers around the country. Although it is not because they are expressing their freedom to disagree about the war, nor is it because they are idiots...although they are idiots but for an entirely different reason.

They were probably members of the Westboro Baptist Church who are led by that noted religious heretic and arch-traitor, Fred Phelps. They are going around to the funerals of soldiers who died in Iraq and protesting saying that their deaths was God's punishment for allowing homosexuals to live in this country.

No, your eyes are not playing tricks on you, you did actually read that, and yes it is actually happening.

This is the same group of whack-jobs that tried to force the Boise City Council to install a "memorial" up in one of our city parks saying that Matthew Sheppard deserved to die because he was gay. Their arguement was that since we had a Ten Commandments monument in the same park that they should be allowed to put their oun memorial in the park as well. The city council removed the Ten Commandments memorial from the park and put it on a church's property and it has been a bone of contention ever since.

These are the same whack-jobs that claim that 9/11 was God's punishment to America for letting homosexuals live here.

These are the same whack-jobs that claim that the break-up of the Space Shuttle Columbia was God's punishment to America for letting homosexuals live here.

These are the same whack-jobs that claim that Hurricaine Katrina was God's punishment to America for letting homosexuals live here.

However, there is a counter protest...

Several Vietnam-era veterans have banded together to protect the families of soldiers at their funerals and even some have faced off against Phelps and his band of traitors to shout them down when they protest at a funeral.

Usually what that degrades down to is a shouting match that goes like this:

USA!

God hates fags!

USA!!

God hates fags!

USA!!!

That was probably what you saw.

[punchout]

Well coming from anyone who is the least bit sane......it is 1 thing to protest, that is okay its your right and whatever, but what the #@$& are they thinking at a funeral? The family and friends are already tramatized without a sign in there face about how they deserved to die.

Not matter what your views on the war or Bush, protesting at a funeral is just rediculous. Nobody in their right mind would do that. I would serously flip out I was the spouse or friend of a soldier who died and protesters were there.

Its definatly wrong.

[big shmooz]

Personally I would express my freedom of speech if I saw a soldier being disrespected in this fashion with a bat in my hand & a nice free speeched head covered in blood laying on the ground... Perhaps I could purchase a two for one burial deal from the cemetery for my soldier friend & the protester.

THIS IS MY FREE SPEECH!!!

[lautrec]

My guess is that what you might have seen was coverage of a protest that has been repeated at the funerals of dead soldiers around the country. Although it is not because they are expressing their freedom to disagree about the war, nor is it because they are idiots...although they are idiots but for an entirely different reason.

They were probably members of the Westboro Baptist Church who are led by that noted religious heretic and arch-traitor, Fred Phelps. They are going around to the funerals of soldiers who died in Iraq and protesting saying that their deaths was God's punishment for allowing homosexuals to live in this country.

No, your eyes are not playing tricks on you, you did actually read that, and yes it is actually happening.

This is the same group of whack-jobs that tried to force the Boise City Council to install a "memorial" up in one of our city parks saying that Matthew Sheppard deserved to die because he was gay. Their arguement was that since we had a Ten Commandments monument in the same park that they should be allowed to put their oun memorial in the park as well. The city council removed the Ten Commandments memorial from the park and put it on a church's property and it has been a bone of contention ever since.

These are the same whack-jobs that claim that 9/11 was God's punishment to America for letting homosexuals live here.

These are the same whack-jobs that claim that the break-up of the Space Shuttle Columbia was God's punishment to America for letting homosexuals live here.

These are the same whack-jobs that claim that Hurricaine Katrina was God's punishment to America for letting homosexuals live here.

However, there is a counter protest...

Several Vietnam-era veterans have banded together to protect the families of soldiers at their funerals and even some have faced off against Phelps and his band of traitors to shout them down when they protest at a funeral.

Usually what that degrades down to is a shouting match that goes like this:

USA!

God hates [naughty word]!

USA!!

God hates [naughty word]!

USA!!!

That was probably what you saw.

Yes, this is the Westboro Babtist Church in Topeka, KS. Fred Phelps personal residence is a compound, and is frequently tagged with swastikas, and a variety of other hate sayings against him. You cannot say he hasn't asked for it.

As posted in several previous posts, you certainly can disagree with the President, you can disagree with homosexual lifestyles. There are many things I disagree with. BUT, to act out hate, does NOTHING to further your cause. Case in point: President Clinton's adultery and lying about it was wrong. I disagree with a man cheating on his wife. Period. However, to call him out the way it happened, did not further the cause of those of us who believe in fidelity and honesty. All it did was galvanize people who are in favor of low or no moral accountability and deceitfulness.

I believe there are better ways to handle objections in a free society. However, many times, common sense, logic and just plain decency is thrown out the window to make political hay. Dems and GOPs are equally guilty.

What Phelps and his cult do is tasteless and has ZERO effectiveness is furthering his cause. He's merely trying to garner fame and attention for himself.

Watch just about any "news show" on CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc., and it's basically the same thing. They aren't reporting news, they are making stuff up to get ratings, attention, and sensationalism. It's the world we live in.

[kgbaseball]

Good thread, DUnit, definitely some interesting thoughts here.

[Sean O]

Personally I would express my freedom of speech if I saw a soldier being disrespected in this fashion with a bat in my hand & a nice free speeched head covered in blood laying on the ground... Perhaps I could purchase a two for one burial deal from the cemetery for my soldier friend & the protester.

THIS IS MY FREE SPEECH!!!

You are the perfect christian, responding with violence to anyone who disagrees with you.

Agree with me or I'll kill you! Jesus didn't mean all that junk about peace, I'll kick your ***!

This is why I hate Christianity. You have absolutely no clue about the fundamental laws of this nation.

[ELDoro]

Those people are idiots....... it is free speech .....I wish there was free @$$ kickings too. There is nothing positive that could come out of that type of protest and they have to know it actually hurts their cause.

[Hitman1072]

Sean, not sure where Shmooz said anything about that being a Christian thing to do. But I don't think reason or logic is anything I can use against you. You're obviously a liberal and nobody in their right mind could use reason or logic and end up being on that end of the political spectrum.

I wholeheartedly expect the conservative and Bush bashing to commence Sean. Let me save you the trouble...Bush lied, no WMD, Cheney...Haliburton. Oh and Bush is an idiot. That pretty much covers your mantra...doesn't it?

[Sean O]

Sean, not sure where Shmooz said anything about that being a Christian thing to do. But I don't think reason or logic is anything I can use against you. You're obviously a liberal and nobody in their right mind could use reason or logic and end up being on that end of the political spectrum.

I wholeheartedly expect the conservative and Bush bashing to commence Sean. Let me save you the trouble...Bush lied, no WMD, Cheney...Haliburton. Oh and Bush is an idiot. That pretty much covers your mantra...doesn't it?

Well, since you're so high and mighty, go ahead, give me your points of view. My guess is that you're just another brainwashed child unwilling to actually consider proper, logical points of view and lords half-truths over the rest of society.

But, maybe that's false and you actually have a clue. So back up your talk, and I'll see if you're worth the 45 seconds it's taken me to type this.

[big shmooz]

You are the perfect christian, responding with violence to anyone who disagrees with you.

Agree with me or I'll kill you! Jesus didn't mean all that junk about peace, I'll kick your ***!

This is why I hate Christianity. You have absolutely no clue about the fundamental laws of this nation.

First of all, I do not hate anybody. My point was not to actually kill anybody. I am sorry if that is how you understood it. I was reacting perhaps in an overly exaggerating way. I will admit to that.

However at the same time, it is not free speech in my opinion to insult others. I don't believe that was the intent of the founding fathers of this country when they fought for it & were trying to insure free speech. Just as the law agrees that yelling FIRE!!! in a movie theatre is not considered protected by the laws of free speech, I am saying that the founding fathers of this country did not intend that others be mocked for doing something good for their country to be considered as free speech.

If you disagree, that's fine too. We all have a right to our opinions. However, that includes me too.

Next point... I am not a Christian. I am a Jew. So please do not make such assumptions.

[big shmooz]

Watch just about any "news show" on CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc., and it's basically the same thing. They aren't reporting news, they are making stuff up to get ratings, attention, and sensationalism. It's the world we live in.

Good point. In fact that is why I DON'T watch them.

[Sean O]

My mistake, I foolishly confuse the desire to inflict great physical pain on another as showing a dislike towards them. I am so stupid sometimes.

As for the Jewish / Christian thing, if we want to talk about true hate speech, we can start with the Old Testament / Torah. I was wrong in saying you were a Christian, because at least the new testament has mercy and positive messages, while the torah / old testament is overwhelmingly vindictive and closed-minded. But, that's another argument.

I hate when people confuse the concept of free speech with either a). censorship or . physical violence, since our bill of rights have been shredded as it is.

[big shmooz]

Sean O... I already admitted I over exaggerated.

As far as the Torah, if you understood it truly, you would not be saying as you do. But then again I do not expect you to understand. It is not your faith.

Nothing personal, but I am not going to defend my religious beliefs in this forum. This is not what it is about. Though if you want to PM me about it, I have no objections to talking with you.

[loachie]

"our bill of rights have been shredded as it is."

Just for clarification, which ones are shredded? :?:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[loachie]

"our bill of rights have been shredded as it is."

Just for clarification, which ones are shredded? :?:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[Sean O]

"our bill of rights have been shredded as it is."

Just for clarification, which ones are shredded? :?:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

"In God We Trust," the Pledge of Allegiance, school prayer, ten commandments statues, ultra-conservative judges and politicians ruling more on the basis of Christianity than the rule of law.

or abridging the freedom of speech

People unlawfully searched and wiretapped because of their beliefs, requirements to sign an oath of allegiance to see the president, people forced into "free speech zones" instead of being allowed to openly, peacefully protest, etc etc.

or of the press;

The Bush administration hiring a "reporter" to purposely lie to the public and toady to Republicans was pretty bad, if not a direct violation of freedom of the press.

or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

As mentioned above. And the republican congress' attempts to block the Supreme Court's ability to make a ruling about the pledge of allegiance, thus blocking the Constitution's tripartite requirements.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Oh, arguments can go either way on this one. To stay true to my point, gun legislation does infringe upon the free ability to bear arms, even if I crazily don't believe people should be allowed to own whatever weapon of mass destruction possible.

Gun control shouldn't punish those who use it responsibly.

Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Thankfully, not really an issue.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Oh good god, where to begin? The administration unconstitutionally wiretaps its citizens without judicial supervision. They attempt to institute a "spy on your neighbor" program, until it's shot down because of overwhelming public outrage. Eminent domain is used to steal land from hard working Americans so we can gift it to corporations.

And then we get to the cops, who can use whatever made up reason possible to bust innocent citizens at their disgression. When "did I hear something" is used instead of getting a warrant to search a private location, we have a problem.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Again, eminent domain is idiotic and wholly unfair to landowners. Plus, we have hundreds of people in Guantanemo who have been sitting in the sun for 5 years without being charged with a crime.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial,

So much for those folks, huh?

by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Yup, none of this is happening, but they're getting great tans.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Man, I forgot how boring some of the amendments are.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

But torturing people overseas is ok, right? Maybe we can just write that part in there without anyone noticing.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

You hear that folks, our forefathers wanted us to enjoy the greatest possible freedoms without being unnecessarily lorded over by a corrupt government.

Government is not an everpresent, ever-existing being. Government's power is derived from the people, not the other way around. And thus, government should have absolutely no right to tell me what I can do to my own body if it does not cause physical, financial, or undue emotional harm to another. It also cannot deny the rights of the minority because of the majority's will, because it is meant to serve all of the people.

I wish the current administration would learn that.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Unlike most liberals (which i'm not, really, because I believe in personal responsibility), I do think states deserve a greater say. If alabama doesn't want abortions, I don't think Alabama should be forced into giving them. If they want to be hate mongers, which they clearly do, and prevent gays from marrying, it's their choice. We'll all head up to an intelligent state like Massachusetts, with our high test scores, great colleges and higher standard of living and enjoy life, gay and straight, black and white, while everyone else can be as crazy as they like.

[SwinginSoriano]

You are the perfect christian, responding with violence to anyone who disagrees with you.

Agree with me or I'll kill you! Jesus didn't mean all that junk about peace, I'll kick your ***!

This is why I hate Christianity. You have absolutely no clue about the fundamental laws of this nation.

My short imput is that is not Christianity that makes people stupid. That's as much as a blanket statement as saying that Islam encourages violence, or that videogames and TV shows contaminate our children.

People can be stupid despite despite religion or lack of.

---

Anyway, doing a protest during a funeral is just flat out tasteless. Our freedom of speech allows it, but it also allows other stupid crap. (Flag burning, KKK, etc.) Of course this does not mean that the right should be nullified however. Lastly, making soldiers' families sad is not going to help build sympathy towards your cause.

[UncleMo]

I get sick of people assuming that everyone is a Christian just because this nation used to be a Christian nation, SeanO. I see that same mistake you made being done many times as an argument. Let someone say something wrong and you grill them with some anti Christian statement. I get sick of it. Just like SS said above me, people make mistakes, regardless of their religion or lack of religion. Even if Big Shmooz was a Christian, do you expect him to be perfect? Then please don't make that argument again. Thank you.