funeral interruptions

[UncleMo]

"In God We Trust," the Pledge of Allegiance, school prayer, ten commandments statues, ultra-conservative judges and politicians ruling more on the basis of Christianity than the rule of law.

The rule of law was based off of Christianity rather than the reverse, bud. The government isn't respecting an establishment of religion so you want to forget that last part where it says "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof?" Just some random thoughts-mo

[Sean O]

I get sick of people assuming that everyone is a Christian just because this nation used to be a Christian nation, SeanO. I see that same mistake you made being done many times as an argument. Let someone say something wrong and you grill them with some anti Christian statement. I get sick of it. Just like SS said above me, people make mistakes, regardless of their religion or lack of religion. Even if Big Shmooz was a Christian, do you expect him to be perfect? Then please don't make that argument again. Thank you.

Aww, how sad, a Christian is so persecuted in this nation. Sure, some of the most dangerous and ignorant of your group are in control of the nation, but it's clearly the non-christians who are really in charge, right?

The point is, the Christian bible and the Torah are so chock full of hate speech that anyone who believes it is the word of god is encouraged to commit some horrible actions.

Rape? perfectly fine, just pay the woman's father a couple sheckles, assuming she doesn't get killed.

Random violence? Sure, let's just kill this persian guy who walks by.

Accidentally see your father naked? Your child will be cursed forever.

There is nothing wrong with Christianity, however there is something horrible about taking the bible literally. I don't see how anyone can be peaceful and fundamentalist, with all the hateful instructions that "god" wrote in the book.

[UncleMo]

Aww, how sad, a Christian is so persecuted in this nation. Sure, some of the most dangerous and ignorant of your group are in control of the nation, but it's clearly the non-christians who are really in charge, right?

The point is, the Christian bible and the Torah are so chock full of hate speech that anyone who believes it is the word of god is encouraged to commit some horrible actions.

Rape? perfectly fine, just pay the woman's father a couple sheckles, assuming she doesn't get killed.

Random violence? Sure, let's just kill this persian guy who walks by.

Accidentally see your father naked? Your child will be cursed forever.

There is nothing wrong with Christianity, however there is something horrible about taking the bible literally. I don't see how anyone can be peaceful and fundamentalist, with all the hateful instructions that "god" wrote in the book.

Not to make you mad but, once again, your lumping together of all religions makes you wrong again. Stop doing it, bro. I take it the bible literally and none of the three things you mentioned above have anyting to do with the bible. I have yet to find any hateful instructions in that book but I'll let you know when I find some that way your comment above will make more sense to you. Or, I'm sure you'll go find you a bible and take something out of context to post here to back that up. I have not hate in my heart, I am a fundementalist born again saved Christian. And because I sense what someone may bring up, "Christians are sooooo judgemental" I'll throw this one in for free: They just declare what the judge says, not judge. Of course you have knuckleheads who jude others because fundementally we are human and make mistakes. And I've said this before, because we see some psycho ultra conservative on TV bombing some abortion clinic or yelling GOD HATES F**S, does not mean that they represent God himself. Just their own psycho selves. I talk to much. Sorry for typing so much.

[UncleMo]

And where did this even come from? Who cares about politics and persecution bro. Stay on point. No one is "my group". Not the dems or repubs.

You said, for some reason:

"Aww, how sad, a Christian is so persecuted in this nation. Sure, some of the most dangerous and ignorant of your group are in control of the nation, but it's clearly the non-christians who are really in charge, right?"

[Sean O]

I get sick of people assuming that everyone is a Christian just because this nation used to be a Christian nation, SeanO.

This line. "used to be a Christian nation" is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long, long time.

Not to make you mad but, once again, your lumping together of all religions makes you wrong again. Stop doing it, bro. I take it the bible literally and none of the three things you mentioned above have anyting to do with the bible.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Exodus, Chapter 2:

2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

2:13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?

Genesis 9:

9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

I have yet to find any hateful instructions in that book but I'll let you know when I find some that way your comment above will make more sense to you. Or, I'm sure you'll go find you a bible and take something out of context to post here to back that up.

yeah, that rape thing was totally taken out of context. The only possible argument you have on any of these is the "randomly killing an egyptian," whose lesson is it's ok to kill someone as long as they're hurting someone like you.

I have not hate in my heart, I am a fundementalist born again saved Christian. And because I sense what someone may bring up, "Christians are sooooo judgemental" I'll throw this one in for free: They just declare what the judge says, not judge. Of course you have knuckleheads who jude others because fundementally we are human and make mistakes.

The point is, Christians seem to have an overwhelming desire to tell others how to live their life. It's one thing to "declare what the judge says," it's another to elect people who do everything in their power to limit the freedoms and choice of their fellow Americans. And should I mention the whole missionary thing, "convert to christianity or you won't eat?"

I'll never understand that while the bible says God's kingdom is not of this earth, why so many Christians want to force christianity on the world.

And I've said this before, because we see some psycho ultra conservative on TV bombing some abortion clinic or yelling GOD HATES F**S, does not mean that they represent God himself. Just their own psycho selves. I talk to much. Sorry for typing so much.

No, but they do represent what the bible says:

Leviticus, 20:

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

You can't get around that. The bible advocates the death of the innocent because of random hate and the whims of its writers. You can't sugarcoat "they shall surely be put to death."

[UncleMo]

One word. Dispensation. Find out what that is and what that means and your whole quandry is resolved.

God hates sin. Not sinners. There is your non sugar coatation.

[Sean O]

One word. Dispensation. Find out what that is and what that means and your whole quandry is resolved.

God hates sin. Not sinners. There is your non sugar coatation.

You see, I keep forgetting how stupid I am, because I was raised that when you say that something must be killed because they are awful, sinful people, you kind of dislike them.

I forget that the Christian god loves the people he slaughters for committing an action that doesn't hurt anyone. God is love!

And how does one deal with the whole "wearing different types of fabric" and rape thing?

[UncleMo]

This line. "used to be a Christian nation" is one of the funniest things I've heard in a long, long time.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Exodus, Chapter 2:

2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

2:13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?

Genesis 9:

9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

yeah, that rape thing was totally taken out of context. The only possible argument you have on any of these is the "randomly killing an egyptian," whose lesson is it's ok to kill someone as long as they're hurting someone like you.

The point is, Christians seem to have an overwhelming desire to tell others how to live their life. It's one thing to "declare what the judge says," it's another to elect people who do everything in their power to limit the freedoms and choice of their fellow Americans. And should I mention the whole missionary thing, "convert to christianity or you won't eat?"

I'll never understand that while the bible says God's kingdom is not of this earth, why so many Christians want to force christianity on the world.

No, but they do represent what the bible says:

Leviticus, 20:

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

You can't get around that. The bible advocates the death of the innocent because of random hate and the whims of its writers. You can't sugarcoat "they shall surely be put to death."

Looking back I seemed to have missed a lot of what you said. I shouldn't skim.

1. You bring up a lot of topics but let's get to the bottom line and stop playing. The bottom line is this-you personally have a choice to make re: your relationship with God. Yours is made up and therefore no matter what I say in response, your choice has been made. So there really is no point in me addressing any of the items brought up above other than for the sake of the "seeker" who may be tainted by your points of view that is reading this thread. This is THE bottom line and for that I don't really care to start chasing rabbits other than to say in the end the bible says that "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confees that Jesus Christ is Lord." Whether you realize that here on earth or when you finally see him face to face matters not to me.

"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"

[SwinginSoriano]

Believe it or not, some of that weird *** **** in the bible actually has a point. Since it is 2000 years later we cannot obviously get the context. (Study-Bibles try to 'make sense' of this.) Of course, I do not have much opinions on the bible because I never read it all. I cannot laud it's greatness or claim it is a book of hate speech. I know someone who actually bothered to read both testaments, and yes his life changed for the better.

some of the most dangerous and ignorant of your group are in control of the nation

It is easy to argue that Bush and pals aren't ruling for the sake of God. Anyway, Bush is no King David despite David's mistakes...

I forget that the Christian god loves the people he slaughters for committing an action that doesn't hurt anyone. God is love!

Jesus was about turning the other cheek, forgiving, and taking crap. Obviously, the Crusades and such are an obvious perversion. The old testament God though, he seems like one tough customer.

[UncleMo]

Please don't be ticked at me for speaking up Sean-O. Just sometimes you say things and I just close my mouth, and then sometimes I have to speak up.

[big shmooz]

All I can say is "oh my gosh". How this conversation has veered.

I feel now I must speak because the honor of G-D is at stake. As UncleMo said, I speak to those who may be tainted by SeanO's misunderstanding of Scriptures. I may be bashed by some for what I am going to say, but if so, so be it. I can't keep quiet here.

I did not want to do this but I feel that I must.

I respect UncleMo, however my beliefs are not his nor are his, mine.

So the things I am about to say I am sure are in disagreement with his points but that is ok too.

I am going to deal directly with the Scriptures that SeanO quoted and wrongly claimed as being hateful.

1) He quotes this... Deuteronomy 22:28-29

22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Let me say I just love olde English heh heh. (Sorry, it's just that I am used to reading the Bible in Hebrew)

Anyway... I am not understanding his point here at all. In fact the man is being punished for what he did wrong. How is this to be considered hateful? Btw... this does not preclude civil punishment under the law of the king. This is in addition to any law of the land that the king has instituted to protect society.

Next... He quotes... Exodus, Chapter 2:

2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

2:13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?

I am not sure of his point. I see nothing wrong in what Moses did. Moses killed a man who was trying to murder another. This is perfectly proper & correct. Had Moses stood by & not done it, THEN I would see a problem in Moses.

Next he quotes...

Genesis 9:

9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Ya just gotta love those english names given in this heh heh (sorry again but I know them by their real given names of Noach, Shaim Chuhm Yehfehs & Kihnaan)

Anyway... Here is a man (Chuhm) who is a lowlife that not only does he look at his naked father, he brags about it to others. & if you understand it according to the Talmud's explanation, he actually castrated his father. (this is why verse 24 says "did to him". Seeing a man naked & telling people about it is not DOING to a person, yet here it says the words "did to him") Which is why Noach cursed Chuhm's fourth son. Since Chuhm deprived Noach of being able to have a fourth son himself.

Next he quotes...

Leviticus, 20:

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

You can't get around that. The bible advocates the death of the innocent because of random hate and the whims of its writers. You can't sugarcoat "they shall surely be put to death."

I don't sugarcoat it. I fully agree with it. "Innocent" you say? That is positively ridiculous. I believe it is a sin of such a magnitude that G-D says that such a person should be cut off if he sins in such a fashion. People today have been brainwashed by the media into thinking this is just an alternate lifestyle.. Well... G-D disagrees. In fact homosexual acts are the ultimate expression of self indulgance. It is wrong & I will not sugarcoat that. G-D hates all types of licentiousness, not just homosexual ones. When G-D hates something it must not to be taken lightly by His creatures. I know there are scoffers who must be thinking right now, I am off my rocker. Well, that's fine too. Because in the end of it all, we all have to answer to the same G-D.

I also want to add, I disagree with UncleMo on one thing... G-D hates the sin, but he hates the sinner too. I am not referring to a person who sins from time to time. Most of us do that. I am referring to the "sinner". Meaning one who habitually sins. G-D said... Yaakov (Jacob) I loved & Aysuhv (Esau) I hated.. If G-D did not hate the sinner he would not have hated Aysuhv.

Anyway, anybody is free to choose their way of life. G-D gave us this freedom of choice, but He also warned of the consequences for those who choose wrongly. Nobody escapes judgment. Not even I.

However for every sinner there is an out. I do not believe it to be jesus. I believe it to be one own self. One can repent their ways & turn to G-D for forgivenes & G-D does forgive the sincere repenatant no matter how much they may have strayed. As G-D said through the prophet Ezekiel... Because He does not desire that the dead shall die, but rather that he should repent of his ways & live.

I am not here to convert anybody, but when I hear my Torah maligned by scoffers, I have to stand up & be counted. This is what I have done here. I feel I have no reason to apologize for anything I have said in this post (as opposed to my first post in this thread where I do feel I overreacted) & if people want to bash me for what I am typing, so be it. I stand by G-D's right. He will protect me.

[Sean O]

All I can say is "oh my gosh". How this conversation has veered.

I feel now I must speak because the honor of G-D is at stake.

God's a big boy, if he's offended by what I say, then we're in bigger trouble than we think, right?

As UncleMo said, I speak to those who may be tainted by SeanO's misunderstanding of Scriptures. I may be bashed by some for what I am going to say, but if so, so be it. I can't keep quiet here.

I did not want to do this but I feel that I must.

I respect UncleMo, however my beliefs are not his nor are his, mine.

So the things I am about to say I am sure are in disagreement with his points but that is ok too.

I am going to deal directly with the Scriptures that SeanO quoted and wrongly claimed as being hateful.

You mean where the bible says to punish rape victims and curse people for doing nothing wrong. Got it.

1) He quotes this... <snip>

Let me say I just love olde English heh heh. (Sorry, it's just that I am used to reading the Bible in Hebrew)

Anyway... I am not understanding his point here at all. In fact the man is being punished for what he did wrong. How is this to be considered hateful? Btw... this does not preclude civil punishment under the law of the king. This is in addition to any law of the land that the king has instituted to protect society.

[UncleMo]

before this gets locked, let's let Sean-O have the last word.

1.God doesn't need anyone to defend him.

2.There's no reason to let this get a good old fashioned lockaroni by the admins. I hate the fact they have to put up with so many head aches and I don't want a healthy discussion becoming one of those.

3. lol: at your Red Sox vs. NYY alegory.

[SwinginSoriano]

You've got to be kidding me. A man rapes a woman, and then it's morally right to force her to live with the man for the rest of her life? That's freaking insane.

Believe it or not, that was a common occurence in ancient Greece. Possibly it was in other ancient civilizations as well. Obviously, a backward culture was being reflected upon at the time.

[Sean O]

I've said my peace, let's get back on topic. If you meant let's let schmooz get his last word, fine by me.

[Jack319]

No, I mean we're doomed because Bush is a horrible president and our nation is getting dumber by the second. That's the real issue here.

Amen SEAN O.

[UncleMo]

let's let Sean-O have the last word.

Just checking....Yeah. Yeah, I typed Sean-O. That's what I meant.

[big shmooz]

Oh my gosh SeanO... you have things totally wrong.

You state... You've got to be kidding me. A man rapes a woman, and then it's morally right to force her to live with the man for the rest of her life? That's freaking insane.

This isn't even the worst passage. Immediately preceding this, it says a woman who is raped but doesn't scream (even if she's in danger of being killed by the rapist), should be stoned to death. Is this right? End quote

She is not forced to live with him the rest of his life. He is forced to live with her. He is not allowed to divorce her no matter what. She however has the right to refuse to be married to him. This law of G-D is correct & proper. It is in fact to protect the woman. Here she has been raped & so she is tainted by the stigma of having been raped & most people may not want to marry her because of this. G-D is protecting her by saying if she fears not being able to find a husband, but wants to get married, we force (edit done here because of spelling mistake) the man to marry her & moreso, while normally a man can divorce a woman, here she is protected from even this happening to her in the future. No wonder your morals are so lopsided, you don't even understand the Scriptures you are reading.

Now on the other previous passage you refer to, she is NOT raped. She consented to have the relationship. This is why she did not scream.

Next you state... So, you're saying it's ok in any situation to enact vigilante justice on others? Did he know the complete situation unfolding? There's no problem randomly killing someone with virtually no information on the situation?

How about this. You walk onto the street and see a man beating up another man. Let's make this topical and say you come out of Yankee Stadium and see a Red Sox fan beating up a Yankee fan. Do you think it's right to go over and beat the hell out of the Red Sox fan, even though you know nothing of the situation? What if the Yankee fan had been abusive to the Red Sox fan, and started the fight to begin with?

The point is, I don't really think the bible should be in favor of vigilante killings. Isn't this why we have laws to begin with, so they can deal with issues instead of us meting out our own flawed brand of justice. End quote.

I am saying that when a persons life is in danger, you do not stand by & do nothing because you are not the police. Actually he did know the situation. I don't know if I should get into this or not, but what the heck. I will. This Egyptian man who was beating up this Israelite man was actually an Egyptian taskmaster. He followed home this Israelite the night before. When he came to his house he saw the man's wife. Her name was Shlomis bas Divri from the trbe of Dan & she was extremely beautiful. This egyptian taskmaster desired her. So when her husband went away, he entered the house & it being dark had sex with her. She thought it was her husband. & since it was dark she could not tell & so she went along with it. However in the middle of things, in walked the husband & saw what was going on. The Egyptian knew he had been found out. The next morning he tried to cover up his crime by murdering the husband. Moses saw this. Not only that, but when it says in the verse that he looked to & fro & saw no man, this in fact does not mean that nobody was there, since of course we know that the next day the 2 men fighting knew all about it. Obviously they were there. In fact one of the 2 men there was the man the Egyptian was beating & he was obviously a witness since he was right there. The verse however means, that he looked into this mans future descendents & saw "there was no man" meaning, no man worthy of being called a man (a righteous person), so he killed him. Because he knew that no future good would come from this person anyway.

Next you state... Once again, that's insane. Nothing in this passage explains even the slightest bit of the interpretation you gave. In the Old Testament, Noah is a drunken lout who passes out naked, and his son happens to stumble across his naked father, and tells others that, y'know, maybe we should do something about it. For his troubles, his son is cursed forever.

I would love to see how anyone is supposed to get from point a to point b given just what was written in this version. End quote.

Well, that is why you don't understand Scripture. I sorta explained how one derives this. However if you want a more detailed understanding you would need to study the Talmud. But suffice it to say, the way I described it is indeed the way it happened. Chuhm was a lowlife who bragged about his endeavors to his brothers.

Next you state... You're right, they're not innocent to the hate filled, ignorant little children like you. You people may be too closed-minded to believe in stupid things like "science" and logic, choosing instead to read the insane ramblings of people who've been dead for 1900 years, but homosexuals do not choose to be the way they are, it is biological. It isn't like being a child molestor as you would like to believe, which is nurture instead of nature, it is a fundamental biological situation. End quote.

I don't believe IN science or logic. I believe IN G-D. However, I accept science & logic when they are true to both science & logic. You have not shown me any science or logic. This is the problem. I never said homosexuals choose to be the way they are. Please do not put words in my mouth. I do not believe anybody chooses to be the way they are including child molesters. I believe we all have inate tendencies, both good one's & bad one's. This is the way G-D created us. How we use them however, is up to us. The person who is inclined to murder can choose to do so or not. He is responsible for that choice. The homosexual can choose to sleep with another man or choose not to do so. The one inclined to rape can choose to rape or not to do so. The one who has sexual desires for a married woman can choose to do so or not. etc... It's not about the tendencies, it's about one's actions.

Next you state... So you want to punish people who do absolutely nothing to hurt another person, but believe it's right to kill a rape victim because she does not scream. Either you believe in the insanity of the bible, which you clearly do, or you do not. So, kill the innocent, let the guilty thrive. End quote.

Here again you are mistaken. In fact there is no sin which is not harming to others. I don't expect you to understand this, but when a person sins they destroy the environment. Today we have homosexual dogs. This is due to the promiscuity of humans. This occured in the time before the flood too. When humans pervert, they pollute the world around them to such a degree that even the animals can become homosexual.

Now as far as the innocent being killed, I already explained that the girl who did not scream did not scream because she was consenting to the sexual relationship & in fact wanted it. Hence she is just as guilty as he & therefore both are put to death because she is a married woman.

In fact, the Torah uses the concept of city & field not as a literal concept there. The city signifies a place where people are situated. Hence a man would be scared to rape in a place where he may be found doing the evil deed. So the Torah calls consent by the term "city" However in a field a man is away from others & so he can rape where he will not be found. Hence the Torah terms rape as "in a field".

As far as your next responses... I don't deem them worthy of responding to. Nothing personal. But one thing I will say... G-Dis the creator of love. He loves all his creatures. However at the same time, when a person rebels against G-D he is alone responsible for G-D hating him. Not vice versa. G-D & sin & are total opposites. The person who is a sinner hates G-D. G-D is only responding in kind. But even with this, G-D wishes the sinner to repent & come back to Him. He waits till death's day for that sinner. The sinner can choose as he wishes, but G-D waits. This is G-D's greatness. But G-D is also just & every person is judged for their life, both good & bad for all their deeds, both good deeds & bad one's & they are weighed. Woe to the person whose bad deeds outweigh his good deeds. Fortunate is the person whose good deeds outweigh his bad & even more fortunate is the person who when he dies is clean of sin for his path is bliss for all eternity.

I wish G-D's wish. That you repent & turn to Him. G-D in His infinite wisdom gave us free will. Otherwise your turning to Him would not be you doing so.

[big shmooz]

Believe it or not, that was a common occurence in ancient Greece. Possibly it was in other ancient civilizations as well. Obviously, a backward culture was being reflected upon at the time.

You are falling for SeanO's misunderstandings of Scripture. Read my explanation. It is not as he (sean O) interprets it.

[Sean O]

Oh my gosh SeanO... you have things totally wrong.

She is not forced to live with him the rest of his life. He is forced to live with her.

HAH.

Oh, wait, you're serious. Whoa.

He is not allowed to divorce her no matter what. She however has the right to refuse to be married to him. This law of G-D is correct & proper. It is in fact to protect the woman. Here she has been raped & so she is tainted by the stigma of having been raped & most people may not want to marry her because of this. G-D is protecting her by saying if she fears not being able to find a husband, but wants to get married, we force (edit done here because of spelling mistake) the man to marry her & moreso, while normally a man can divorce a woman, here she is protected from even this happening to her in the future. No wonder your morals are so lopsided, you don't even understand the Scriptures you are reading.

So, instead of trying to fix the situation, you agree with the bible that the woman should be essentially forced to live with this man? The man is not being punished, and you have no problem with this at all. and I have lopsided morals. You don't punish rape victims, but want to kill two consenting adults.

I am saying that when a persons life is in danger, you do not stand by & do nothing because you are not the police.

Even though you know nothing of the situation?

Actually he did know the situation. I don't know if I should get into this or not, but what the heck. I will. This Egyptian man who was beating up this Israelite man was actually an Egyptian taskmaster. He followed home this Israelite the night before. When he came to his house he saw the man's wife. Her name was Shlomis bas Divri from the trbe of Dan & she was extremely beautiful. This egyptian taskmaster desired her. So when her husband went away, he entered the house & it being dark had sex with her. She thought it was her husband. & since it was dark she could not tell & so she went along with it. However in the middle of things, in walked the husband & saw what was going on. The Egyptian knew he had been found out. The next morning he tried to cover up his crime by murdering the husband. Moses saw this. Not only that, but when it says in the verse that he looked to & fro & saw no man, this in fact does not mean that nobody was there, since of course we know that the next day the 2 men fighting knew all about it. Obviously they were there. In fact one of the 2 men there was the man the Egyptian was beating & he was obviously a witness since he was right there. The verse however means, that he looked into this mans future descendents & saw "there was no man" meaning, no man worthy of being called a man (a righteous person), so he killed him. Because he knew that no future good would come from this person anyway.

You've got to be kidding me. One, you're saying it's ok to kill someone based on a moral judgment, rather than letting the state decide. Interesting. Considering your desire for homosexuals to die, I am really frightened to have you out in normal society.

Two, How on earth is anyone supposed to glean all that (questionable, as it is) information from that passage? It's insane. There is the bible, which presents this at face value, and then there's this whole other obscure history behind each individual passage, which again is of questionable accuracy. So the bible is the spark notes version of life?

Crazy.

Well, that is why you don't understand Scripture. I sorta explained how one derives this. However if you want a more detailed understanding you would need to study the Talmud. But suffice it to say, the way I described it is indeed the way it happened. Chuhm was a lowlife who bragged about his endeavors to his brothers.

Same as above, what the bible / torah says at face value and what you are saying are two completely different things. Either the bible can attempt to explain the real situation, which it clearly doesn't, or it has to give the full story. This is why the old testament / torah, as the fundamental basis of religious understanding for the mass of people, is wholly flawed.

Look, if I write a book giving, as I mentioned, a cliff's notes summation of, say, current day life, am I to expect people outside of my personal experience to completely understand where I'm coming from, and the backstories if I don't bother to explain it? Of course not. Hence, flawed, and the teachings taken from the old testament themselves will have to be based on the face value statements made in the text.

I don't believe IN science or logic. I believe IN G-D.

Guess we have a new favorite quote of the thread. Nothing has to make sense! The fact that god challenges man without any proper reason, or in ways that directly challenge other passages of the text isn't a problem!

However, I accept science & logic when they are true to both science & logic. You have not shown me any science or logic. This is the problem. I never said homosexuals choose to be the way they are. Please do not put words in my mouth. I do not believe anybody chooses to be the way they are including child molesters. I believe we all have inate tendencies, both good one's & bad one's. This is the way G-D created us. How we use them however, is up to us. The person who is inclined to murder can choose to do so or not. He is responsible for that choice. The homosexual can choose to sleep with another man or choose not to do so. The one inclined to rape can choose to rape or not to do so. The one who has sexual desires for a married woman can choose to do so or not. etc... It's not about the tendencies, it's about one's actions.

Wow, you are totally missing the boat. Tendencies to commit violent actions are not fundamentally innate in the same way that sexual preference is ingrained in man. For the vast, vast majority, this is due to upbringing and the particular post-birth situation of the human being. The point is, hetero and homosexuals developed naturally, at which point many heterosexuals became afraid of homosexuals and the "homosexual lifestyle." This likely happened because homosexuality would prevent a "normal" life and the benefits that entailed, of a wife and kids. Thus is born a stigma.

You need to look more into the case studies taken in remote parts of the world to see the real side of nature / nurture. It has nothing to do with the desire to murder or rape, it is exactly as powerful and naturally beneficial as heterosexuality, just with more people wanting to hurt you for no real reason.

Plus, what right do you have to want to keep people from doing what doesn't hurt anyone? This is my main axe to grind with religious people, why can't you let people be? I disagree with people, tons of people, but I will never try to stop anyone from doing what they want to themselves. This leads into why religion is diametrically opposed to the best American government has (had?) to offer, but that's for another time.

Here again you are mistaken. In fact there is no sin which is not harming to others. I don't expect you to understand this, but when a person sins they destroy the environment. Today we have homosexual dogs. This is due to the promiscuity of humans.

PPOR. Post the slightest bit of proof here. Homosexuality has been around at least for the last 6,000 years, but "today" we have homosexual dogs. You are seriously mixing up the causation my friend.

This occured in the time before the flood too. When humans pervert, they pollute the world around them to such a degree that even the animals can become homosexual.

So, against all logic, you think animals become gay through osmosis? This doesn't make any sense, at all. Because humans murder, is that why animals kill other animals, not because they've been doing it for hundreds and thousands of years?

Did you ever think this is how nature wants it, as a form of population control?

As far as your next responses... I don't deem them worthy of responding to. Nothing personal. But one thing I will say... G-Dis the creator of love. He loves all his creatures. However at the same time, when a person rebels against G-D he is alone responsible for G-D hating him. Not vice versa. G-D & sin & are total opposites. The person who is a sinner hates G-D. G-D is only responding in kind.

Wait, so you want to believe in a god who has the mental and reasoning capacity of a four year old? You hit me and I'll hit you back? What a bully.

But even with this, G-D wishes the sinner to repent & come back to Him. He waits till death's day for that sinner. The sinner can choose as he wishes, but G-D waits. This is G-D's greatness. But G-D is also just & every person is judged for their life, both good & bad for all their deeds, both good deeds & bad one's & they are weighed. Woe to the person whose bad deeds outweigh his good deeds. Fortunate is the person whose good deeds outweigh his bad & even more fortunate is the person who when he dies is clean of sin for his path is bliss for all eternity.

I wish G-D's wish. That you repent & turn to Him. G-D in His infinite wisdom gave us free will. Otherwise your turning to Him would not be you doing so.

I see, and have never seen, any reason to worship a hateful monster, like I mentioned above. Say what you will, but the torah / bible is chock full of the monster killing the innocent for no reason but on His Crazy Whim.

Tell you what, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to keep treating everyone equally, gay or straight, black or white, jewish, christian or atheist. I'm not going to hate entire groups of people because some dusty old book told me to, and where-ever possible, I'm going to be nice to everyone. I won't judge people or force them into a way of life they don't like, and I'm going to live by logic.

I don't want to hate the innocent, or worship a being that allows innocent children and adults to suffer, and so I can never be religious.

nuf ced.

[UncleMo]

Today will be a day you will remember for eternity.

[SwinginSoriano]

You are falling for SeanO's misunderstandings of Scripture. Read my explanation. It is not as he (sean O) interprets it.

Okay. You'd know more about the scripture than me. :)

[Sean O]

Today will be a day you will remember for eternity.

What on earth does that mean? Does Beckett throw a perfect game tonight?

[SwinginSoriano]

What on earth does that mean? Does Beckett throw a perfect game tonight?

Possibly Soriano will walk 4 times tonight. :p

[Sean O]

Possibly Soriano will walk 4 times tonight.

Pffft, that's just crazy talk. Hmm, I wonder if we put Youkilis next to him if he'll someone obtain plate discipline by osmosis. Would that mean god hates plate discipline?

If so, man, Giambi's got the double-whammy.