A sign God does not exist or he has a wicked sense of humor!

[medric822]

wow, just looking back at what I wrote, I'm suprised I haven't recieved some weird tag from a admin that says philospher or reverend or something like that, lol.

[big shmooz]

medric822 Actually I heard that story too. (told with a slight variation) & I agree, that tells things in a way that is profound. G-D in fact is there for all of us. We just have to want Him. Not in a lip service type of way. But in reality.

The question is, how many of us pay lip service to G-D but in fact only really care about ourselves. What does G-D do for me is a common question people ask. Well... in fact G-D does everything for us. if not for G-D we could not even exist.

I think we should have an outlook of, "what can I do for G-D". In reality there is nothing I can do except to make Him happy by obeying Him & loving Him.

To those who question G-D's morals, I say this... There is suffering in the world. However there is also good that people have. When we complain when things go wrong, perhaps we should give credit to G-D for all the good we have. How many people wake up in the morning & thank G-D for the fact that they are alive that day? There is a Jewish prayer that Jews say every morning the instant they wake up that says as follows... "I gratefully thank You, O living and eternal King, for You have returned my soul within me with compassion - abundant is Your faithfulness!".

Do people suffer? Yes. Do we always understand why this is so? No. But then again, there is much we do not understand. But just because we do not understand does not mean it's wrong. I am known to say, when we know as much as G-D, then we can judge G-D.

I am going to relate a true story told in Jewish teachings. In Egypt where Israel was enslaved the Egyptians used to take Jewish babies & would use them as mortar to fill walls being constructed. One day Moses saw such a baby in the wall & desired to save the baby's life. G-D told him not to do this. However Moses said, "G-D, how can I walk by and let this Israelite baby die?" G-D said, "if your intention is to save this baby, you may do so, but be warned I told you this was not a good idea". Moses then set the baby free. This baby was then raised by him & grew up following Moses. Later on when Israel left Egypt this baby was the one that caused the construction of the golden calf which caused a sin that Israel still suffers for till this very day. He also built another idol in Israel referred to as "the image of Meechuh" (Micah) in Scripture. Yes.... this very baby was Meechuh. (Not the prophet Meechuh, but the other one)

Here we see a prime example of a baby who had he been left to die would have been a better situation. How do we who deem to judge G-D for the death of people who it seems to us should not have died, to in fact know why he (the baby) did? How many hitlers have been averted by these deaths? Do you know? Do I know? No. But I do know that G-D knows more than I & He knows the future etc.. & therefore can see things none of us humans can see. This is MY faith.

Lautrec... You asked a question here. You asked... "If we can earn our way to heaven/utopia, then why would Jesus die for our sins?"

I just want to say, I respect your belief in this. However as a Jew I beg to disagree. I know you mention that "This is what I believe. I am not putting down anyone else's beliefs." & I respect that. But just for the sake of you & others to understand a differing point of view, I will respond to your point. Remember this is not meant to put down your beliefs. It is offered merely as an explanation.

I believe that man does earn their everlasting life (eternity) (or as it is called in Judasim "the world to come") by the way they live their life. G-D considers us as good enough (capable) to follow Him & obey Him. G-D's laws are not given to us to ensnare us, but rather to elevate us. G-D said "be Holy for I am Holy". He wants us to be LIKE HIM. This is why He gave us the law to live by.

G-D says (through Moses) in Deut. "because this (referring to the law) is your life & the length of your days". The double wording refers to life in this world & length of your days for eternity. (since length of days does not exist in this world where people live even less than 100 years) I do not see the need for jesus (or anybody else) to die for our sins, since that defeats the whole purpose of why we are here. (If we are to be more like G-D, how can jesus or anybody else dying for our sins accomplish us being more like G-D?) A "get out of jail free" card, seems nice, but it doesn't make us more like G-D. Please do not be offended by what I am saying. I do not mean to put down your beliefs. I am only giving you (& other Christians) a different point of view.

[PirateFan13]

KIEV (Reuters) - A man shouting that God would keep him safe was mauled to death by a lioness in Kiev zoo after he crept into the animal's enclosure, a zoo official said on Monday.

"The man shouted 'God will save me, if he exists', lowered himself by a rope into the enclosure, took his shoes off and went up to the lions," the official said.

"A lioness went straight for him, knocked him down and severed his carotid artery."

The incident, Sunday evening when the zoo was packed with visitors, was the first of its kind at the attraction. Lions and tigers are kept in an "animal island" protected by thick concrete blocks.

© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.

This is not meant as a God bashing post, just found it funny!

This is explained very easily, God, through the written Word(Bible) clearly states "do not test the Lord God almighty". If you end up in a dangerous position, and its Gods will, he will either save you or help you through it. If you put yourself in the situation to test God, forget it, thats just plain stupid.

The is definitely a God... because there is baseball.

PirateFan13

[MarkB]

This is explained very easily, God, through the written Word(Bible) clearly states "do not test the Lord God almighty". If you end up in a dangerous position, and its Gods will, he will either save you or help you through it. If you put yourself in the situation to test God, forget it, thats just plain stupid.

The is definitely a God... because there is baseball.

PirateFan13

If you're Christian, yes. However, not everyone is Christian.

[Roscosuper]

Ya know, a long time ago, if the smaller smarter group of people, didn't want to control and exploit the larger more naive group of people, the moron would have never even been near the lion in the first place. Nor would this conversation be taking place.

[Lars777]

medric822 Actually I heard that story too. (told with a slight variation) & I agree, that tells things in a way that is profound. G-D in fact is there for all of us. We just have to want Him. Not in a lip service type of way. But in reality.

The question is, how many of us pay lip service to G-D but in fact only really care about ourselves. What does G-D do for me is a common question people ask. Well... in fact G-D does everything for us. if not for G-D we could not even exist.

I think we should have an outlook of, "what can I do for G-D". In reality there is nothing I can do except to make Him happy by obeying Him & loving Him.

To those who question G-D's morals, I say this... There is suffering in the world. However there is also good that people have. When we complain when things go wrong, perhaps we should give credit to G-D for all the good we have. How many people wake up in the morning & thank G-D for the fact that they are alive that day? There is a Jewish prayer that Jews say every morning the instant they wake up that says as follows... "I gratefully thank You, O living and eternal King, for You have returned my soul within me with compassion - abundant is Your faithfulness!".

Do people suffer? Yes. Do we always understand why this is so? No. But then again, there is much we do not understand. But just because we do not understand does not mean it's wrong. I am known to say, when we know as much as G-D, then we can judge G-D.

I am going to relate a true story told in Jewish teachings. In Egypt where Israel was enslaved the Egyptians used to take Jewish babies & would use them as mortar to fill walls being constructed. One day Moses saw such a baby in the wall & desired to save the baby's life. G-D told him not to do this. However Moses said, "G-D, how can I walk by and let this Israelite baby die?" G-D said, "if your intention is to save this baby, you may do so, but be warned I told you this was not a good idea". Moses then set the baby free. This baby was then raised by him & grew up following Moses. Later on when Israel left Egypt this baby was the one that caused the construction of the golden calf which caused a sin that Israel still suffers for till this very day. He also built another idol in Israel referred to as "the image of Meechuh" (Micah) in Scripture. Yes.... this very baby was Meechuh. (Not the prophet Meechuh, but the other one)

Here we see a prime example of a baby who had he been left to die would have been a better situation. How do we who deem to judge G-D for the death of people who it seems to us should not have died, to in fact know why he (the baby) did? How many hitlers have been averted by these deaths? Do you know? Do I know? No. But I do know that G-D knows more than I & He knows the future etc.. & therefore can see things none of us humans can see. This is MY faith.

Lautrec... You asked a question here. You asked... "If we can earn our way to heaven/utopia, then why would Jesus die for our sins?"

I just want to say, I respect your belief in this. However as a Jew I beg to disagree. I know you mention that "This is what I believe. I am not putting down anyone else's beliefs." & I respect that. But just for the sake of you & others to understand a differing point of view, I will respond to your point. Remember this is not meant to put down your beliefs. It is offered merely as an explanation.

I believe that man does earn their everlasting life (eternity) (or as it is called in Judasim "the world to come") by the way they live their life. G-D considers us as good enough (capable) to follow Him & obey Him. G-D's laws are not given to us to ensnare us, but rather to elevate us. G-D said "be Holy for I am Holy". He wants us to be LIKE HIM. This is why He gave us the law to live by.

G-D says (through Moses) in Deut. "because this (referring to the law) is your life & the length of your days". The double wording refers to life in this world & length of your days for eternity. (since length of days does not exist in this world where people live even less than 100 years) I do not see the need for jesus (or anybody else) to die for our sins, since that defeats the whole purpose of why we are here. (If we are to be more like G-D, how can jesus or anybody else dying for our sins accomplish us being more like G-D?) A "get out of jail free" card, seems nice, but it doesn't make us more like G-D. Please do not be offended by what I am saying. I do not mean to put down your beliefs. I am only giving you (& other Christians) a different point of view.

Just a lil sidebar here as you stated in your post that you believe that man

has something to do with earning eternal life by the way he lives.

That statement is not correct.......if one reads his Bible .

For Romans states that Jesus Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness.

The Law was givin.....or if you want to call it the 10 commandments to

strengthen sin against us......It was not givin for us to live by.

God well knew that man which is not perfect could in noway keep a perfect Law.......But rather the Laws intention was to point us to showing us that we

mankind was in need of a Saviour.

Etremal life is so misunderstood.......Everyone born weather you believe in God or Buddah already posess eternal life......all people will live forever

in one of two places.

But Jesus explains to us what eternal life means in John 17:3 when He says

And this is life eternal.......that you may know the Father.

This is describing a deep personal intimate realationship.......Way back in Genesis we see that Adam KNEW his wife Eve and she concieved.

Jesus came not to forgive us our sin.......yes that was a cause for our sin

needed to be forgiven........But Jesus came and He and He alone fulfilled

the Law perfectly........So now when we confess Jesus as our Lord and Savior and put all of our trust in Him.....We are imputed with His righteousness!

Jesus was a man......and God the Father was dwelling in Him.

This fact was made known by Jesus many times as He repeated over and over again......I only do what I see my Father do......I only say what I hear my Father say....Jesus is a working model as to how man was intended

to live from the start.

Jesus said to the Pharisees while standing in the temple If you destroy this temple I will raise it up again in 3 days..........there reply was .....You cant be serious....it took hundreds of years to build this temple and you will rebuild it in 3 days.

Well Jesus was speaking of His body.....where God was dwelling.......For God does not dwell in building made with human hands but rather in mankind..............Paul states this fact over and over again in Romans

that our bodys are a temple of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus and Jesus alone is the only way to the Father.........Dont you see it yet.

Jesus said that its nolonger the act of murder that is a sin.....But I say to you If you even have it in your heart but dont commit the act you are just as guilty as commiting it!

When you invite Jesus into your life you will find the you will start to automaticlly live good and right.....why......not because of what you are doing but rather because of what He is doing through you!

[DJEagles]

Wow, I started this thread, because I though the guy in the artivle was an idiot. I never meant to start a philosophical debat, but it is nice to see we can debate this without getting nasty.

[ferrarienzo]

Just cause it worked for Daniel doesnt it mean it work for all of us

[fred13]

I 100% beleive in God, but God doesn't work like that. At least thats what I think.

God doesn't have to prove anything. This guys sounded like he needed a miracle for him to believe in God. God isnt about seeing, its about believing.

That's what faith is all about.

Maybe the fact that everyone respects this quote (as do I) proves my point to everyone that Angels in the Outfield is the best movie ever :D

[big shmooz]

Just a lil sidebar here as you stated in your post that you believe that man has something to do with earning eternal life by the way he lives.

That statement is not correct.......if one reads his Bible .

For Romans states that Jesus Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness.

The Law was givin.....or if you want to call it the 10 commandments to

strengthen sin against us......It was not givin for us to live by.

God well knew that man which is not perfect could in noway keep a perfect Law.......But rather the Laws intention was to point us to showing us that we

mankind was in need of a Saviour.

I understand that you believe this & that's fine. But the Scriptures (G-d's word) clearly say otherwise. (which is why I posted the verses above) When G-D speaking regarding the law says "this is your life & the length of your days", I don't think He was just pretending.

Actually G-D specifically says "to live by them". (regarding the law) Look up if you wish, chapter 18 of Leviticus verse 5.

For convienence sake, I will post it. "You shall observe My statutes and My ordinances, which a man shall do and live by them. I am the Lord."

You mention that G-D well knew that man could in no way keep a perfect law. Again I disagree.

Please read the following verses (there are more verses which I will not quote so as to not lengthen the post too much)

Deut chapter 20 verse 2... and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children.

Verse 8 ... And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.

[lautrec]

Going back to the point made about "a real God would not let children suffer" ...

I think this is a veryhard concept, particularly for people who view themselves as "enightened". The primary assertion is that God, if He is all loving and all caring, would never allow innocent people to suffer. Now, the breakdown of that idea comes in the fact that that is an opinion postulated by man, NOT God. In essence, to declare that God would not allow innocents to suffer, or to declare anything about God, is really speculation on our part.

I submit that God is omnipotent and frankly, can pretty much do anything He wants. I also believe that He and His decisions are perfect and His command of this universe is perfect.

I am of the belief that we are man, and God, is God. Why do innocents suffer? God knows. Why do evil people sometimes do well? God knows. Remember this: The meek shall inherit the earth.

[lautrec]

Going back to the point made about "a real God would not let children suffer" ...

I think this is a veryhard concept, particularly for people who view themselves as "enightened". The primary assertion is that God, if He is all loving and all caring, would never allow innocent people to suffer. Now, the breakdown of that idea comes in the fact that that is an opinion postulated by man, NOT God. In essence, to declare that God would not allow innocents to suffer, or to declare anything about God, is really speculation on our part.

I submit that God is omnipotent and frankly, can pretty much do anything He wants. I also believe that He and His decisions are perfect and His command of this universe is perfect.

I am of the belief that we are man, and God, is God. Why do innocents suffer? God knows. Why do evil people sometimes do well? God knows. Remember this: The meek shall inherit the earth.

[Bigschiff7]

FYI: I am born again if anyone's curious, and I'd be glad to try to tackle any questions you may have.

I was reading this thread and I'm another person who loved what NYM said.

But medric, i was wondering what you are talking about.

[Lars777]

I understand that you believe this & that's fine. But the Scriptures (G-d's word) clearly say otherwise. (which is why I posted the verses above) When G-D speaking regarding the law says "this is your life & the length of your days", I don't think He was just pretending.

Actually G-D specifically says "to live by them". (regarding the law) Look up if you wish, chapter 18 of Leviticus verse 5.

For convienence sake, I will post it. "You shall observe My statutes and My ordinances, which a man shall do and live by them. I am the Lord."

You mention that G-D well knew that man could in no way keep a perfect law. Again I disagree.

Please read the following verses (there are more verses which I will not quote so as to not lengthen the post too much)

Deut chapter 20 verse 2... and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children.

Verse 8 ... And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.

Yes you are stuck in the Old Testament......For all things in the Old Testament were shadows of things to come in the New Testament.

Animal sacrifices.....the High Priest going into the holy of holys to atone for the peoples sin once a year.......eating certin meats.....all are passed away

in the New Covenent.....

For Hebrews states for if the 1st covenent was without fault there would be no need for a second.

Hence the 1st covenent is covered in the Old Testament

The New Covenent is covered in the New Testament.

The old testament points to the coming of Christ starting in Genesis and Christ is prophised on every page of the old testament.

If you are trying to uphold the law in your own flesh then you have already lost for the Word states For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

The Glory of God is non other than Jesus Christ.

He fulfilled the Law on our behalf where we could not!

There is no remission of sin nor forgivness without Christ as your Savior.

Again Jesus said No man CAN COME UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME!

You need to read only the book of Romans to understand the passing of the old covenent to what is now the new covenent.

As far as people and or children suffering.........most do not understand as how could a loving God let this happen.

Well if one knew God then one would know that God says in the Word

My people are DESTROYED for lack of knowledge !

What does that mean to you?

It means we all reap what we sow.......as a farmer plants corn... he know full well he will harvest corn in a few short monthes.....He knows he will not harvest wheat.

And what we reap are the words that come out of our mouthes and the things we do.

Those are the things we plant......and when we plant negitive and or bad things we will reap as such the like.

Jesus spoke clearly on this in Matthew in the parable of the 4 soils.

God is real as one only needs to step outside and take a good look around them to see how the earth functions on a daily basis......and one can only come to a conclusion that there is someone who is in control.

Believing in God is one thing......as the word states......EVEN THE DEMONS BELIEVE.........but its in really knowing Him is why Jesus came!

Without Jesus YOU CANNOT KNOW THE FATHER !

[big shmooz]

Going back to the point made about "a real God would not let children suffer" ...

I think this is a veryhard concept, particularly for people who view themselves as "enightened". The primary assertion is that God, if He is all loving and all caring, would never allow innocent people to suffer. Now, the breakdown of that idea comes in the fact that that is an opinion postulated by man, NOT God. In essence, to declare that God would not allow innocents to suffer, or to declare anything about God, is really speculation on our part.

I submit that God is omnipotent and frankly, can pretty much do anything He wants. I also believe that He and His decisions are perfect and His command of this universe is perfect.

I am of the belief that we are man, and God, is God. Why do innocents suffer? God knows. Why do evil people sometimes do well? God knows. Remember this: The meek shall inherit the earth.

I would like to say 2 things in reference to your above comment.

G-D does not harm innocent. But the problem is, we do not understand the term "innocence" always. I would rather not get into detail on this, but it has to do with issues that are above our simple understanding.

The second observation is more a technicality. The verse read correctly is "the humble shall inherit the earth". The word is "uhnuhv" in Hebrew. (which means "humble")

[big shmooz]

Yes you are stuck in the Old Testament......For all things in the Old Testament were shadows of things to come in the New Testament.

Animal sacrifices.....the High Priest going into the holy of holys to atone for the peoples sin once a year.......eating certin meats.....all are passed away

in the New Covenent.....

For Hebrews states for if the 1st covenent was without fault there would be no need for a second.

Hence the 1st covenent is covered in the Old Testament

The New Covenent is covered in the New Testament.

The old testament points to the coming of Christ starting in Genesis and Christ is prophised on every page of the old testament.

If you are trying to uphold the law in your own flesh then you have already lost for the Word states For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

I beg to disagree. You are in fact claiming that G-D is contradicting Himself. In one place He says that we can keep the law & then you say in another he says we can not. I do not believe G-D contradicts Himself. Hence I can not accept what you are saying to be correct. My rule of thumb is, if the Hebrew Scriptures teach one thing & the new test. another, I believe the Hebrew Scriptures since they came first.

However you are correct in that I am "stuck" on the Hebrew Scriptures. After all, G-D gave them to me. (I am Jewish) G-D appeared to my ancestors & said "this is my Teaching, I command you to obey it".

I am not trying to insult your beliefs, but you must understand that at the same time, mine teach G-D's word to me & so I obey Him. I see G-D's word as perfect. The definition of perfection means, it can not be improved upon. You do not believe it is perfect. That is alright if you feel that way. But understand that in my Belief, G-D can't make a mistake. He is omnipotent & hence He get's things right the first time.

I also say that while you are welcome to believe that jesus is spoken of in the "old test" I have studied the Hebrew Scriptures extensively & have yet to find this to be the case.

I would just like to point out that you claimed as you believe & that is fine, but you also failed to address the point I brought out in the verses I posted above which show both that man can earn everlasting life & also that it is not only possible to live by the law but that G-D in fact guarantees it will happen.

Again, please understand that I am not trying to insult your beliefs. I just don't see it the way you do. (& that's ok too)

[hapn14]

God does not have to prove himself.

He doesnt play games with retards :)

[HBR_Rocket]

I for one find tempting God is a very foolish thing. It's not that I think God will throw down that lightning bolt and kill you for some sin or bad judgement you may have incured, but rather God will withdrawn his hand of protection from you. How much and when, or does he do it everytime? I really don't know.

How many times have you driven down the road, and were running late because you forgot something at the house and you find a terrible accident has happened about the time you were supposed to have been there if you had not turned around? Luck, protection, fate, karma, call it what you like, I just know we cannot think on the level God can. As smart as we think we have become only to find out how foolish we have been.

I preach a sermon onetime titled, "Why bad things happen to good people", this mesage I tried to point out that this world we live in is a sinful place and we suffer because of those things. Famines, hate, wars, cancer, murder, name it it's there. But I was intertwined with a little fellow that had cancer, and he lived life knowing he was going to die. I was asked over and over why hasn't God healed him? I again cannot see the full vision God has, but this little giant passed away. But his vision of going to Heaven was greater than the sufferings of his cancer on earth.

But , now listen closely, or read slower. God indeed did heal him, not by way of our thinking or choice but God's way of knowing what was better. God does not concern himself so much with the sin's of this world, only the redeeming value of those that reach after him. You may have been close to someone that has died, why did they not live through it? You can't have all the answers, the doctors sure haven't perfected it yet.

God is not sitting in Heaven wringing his hands out asking the angels what to do next, listen he knew the end before the beginning even got cranked up!

Believe what you may, but oneday every question will be answered. I hope when that day happens for me, I have found a few of the answer's and fastened myself to them for eternity awaits us all.

[big shmooz]

Believe what you may, but oneday every question will be answered.

I do not agree with everything you said, but I sure do agree with the above statement.

[NYM]

I do not agree with everything you said, but I sure do agree with the above statement.

He's going to come the same way he left. In the battle of Armagedon, the devil will be defeated.

I'm ust hoping I'm dead by then.

[krawhitham]

A sign God does not exist

This thread will not die

[big shmooz]

He's going to come the same way he left. In the battle of Armagedon, the devil will be defeated.

I'm ust hoping I'm dead by then.

If you mean jesus is coming, I of course disagree. I actually hope I am alive at the end of the last war, since the righteous will survive this war. Only the wicked will die. I am assuming you mean the battle over Jerusalem spoken about by the Prophet Zihcharyuh.

[NYM]

Actually, supposedly the folowers of Jesus will be brought up to heaven before the war. Then all the sinners will have to wear the sign of the devil or be killed by the devil. Then the survirors who repented (mostly jews) will start an army again. Then they will begin the battle of armagedon. Then Jesus comes riding the white horse. The knight and shining armor ending earth and evil.

[maxbjr]

I believe in God, I just don't believe in the abuse of religion done in the name of God. I've seen more spritually good people outside of church then I've ever seen in one. I forget exactly where, but Jesus said something about living the faith instead of showing it off expecting to be rewarded for it.

[pdub]

He's going to come the same way he left. In the battle of Armagedon, the devil will be defeated.

I'm ust hoping I'm dead by then.

I don't believe so. I believe the devil isn't even near God's power.

If I were to compare God to a President, then the devil would be like the Warden of the Federal prison.

What I really believe - Humans will never understand God, we will never be on the same level, nor we do not have the capability to. If we did, we wouldn't be humans, we would be gods.

Speaking on the original post of this thread, I believe you can't test God or give God an ultimatum to proove itself.