A sign God does not exist or he has a wicked sense of humor!

[UncleMo]

Interesting. Jews calculate the years based on when G-D created Adam. Hence the Jewish year is currently 5,766

So do some fundementalist christians BTW. I'm not contributing much to your discussions, sorry I'm boring.

dj, I studied JW's beliefs last year. I used to be Cath., btw, and am now a born again Christian. I think you already know the answer to your own question: You can take the bible and stretch the truths. What they have done is take the bible, re translate the old tedxt so that it can mean whatever they want it to mean. When dealing with them, in a kind way of course, you need to challenge them to go back and learn Greek/Hebrew or to look a Greek Hebrew bible that maybe has the translation next to it and have them see what was taken out or purposely changed. They may be to overwhelmed at such a challenged, as any person would. Who wants to bust their tail when they "already know what they beleive" so they may deem you as not worth their time.

[medric822]

Vritually, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism is all the same thing. People just look at it in different perspectives.

When Jesus was on Earth, he didn't want to start a new religio. He didn't convert atheist into belivers. He didnt say Muslims were bad and they had to be Jews. No. Whataver religion you practiced, Jesus just wanted you to be better at that. be a better Muslim. Be a better Jew. Be a better person.

BTW: Unbelivers and sinners supposedly get left back on Earth to face the devil while good people get called up to heaven during the rapture.

What I always wonder is, what happens to all the animals that die? Do dogs go to heaven? Can you have a dog in heaven?

What if there a dinosaurs. lol. It would be mass caos. I hope they have there own little section lol.

Yes, I agree with you. I love to recite the passages where it tells me to kill for my belifs.

And on another note, Judaism and Christianity are like milk and yogert.

And your somewhat wrong with the rapture quote of yours. They stay here until the Second Coming of Christ. Until then, they deal with what is predicted within Revelation.

Just whatever you do, Dont take seriously what Jesus said about the only way you can reach the father, God, is through him.

Also, one major difference from Christianity from any other religion. All these religions had their marters, but how many of these returned from the dead?

[DJEagles]

I am thinking on embracing a new religion....The ways of The Jedi...

...seems alot less complicated then today's religious beliefs...and man I love them lightsabers.

[big shmooz]

maddux31... I beg to differ with you on the statement you made about agreeing that a hundred something prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures are about jesus. Actually I have looked into this extensively based on a claim I heard & saw that over three hundred prophecies were fulfilled by jesus.

I actually went & investigated these claims (all 300) & one by one debunked them. Again, I mean no disrespect to you. But in fact the claims I found were divided into what I call different sections. Some were in fact based on ideas so far fetched like for instance, the claim that jesus is the son of Abraham. & this is counted as fulfilling a prophecy. Well, in fact there are millions & millions of people in the world that fulfill that prophecy. That is not called fulfilling a Messianic prophecy. The idea of fulfilling a Messianic prophecy is something that is exclusive. That nobody else can do other than the Messiah.

Then there was a catagory that I call "misquotes". This comes from mistranslations of the Scriptures when it was translated from it's orignial Hebrew into English (or whatever language it was translated into).

The most famous of this is of course Isaiah chapter 7 verse 14 which claims that Isaiah said that a virgin will bear a child. In fact Isaiah said absolutely no such thing. What Isaiah actually said was a young woman would bear a child. However, Christians took Isaiah & mistranslated it in order to fit their particular belief.

When you take a verse & change it in order to fit your belief, you can in fact make the verse say anything you wish. I could take a verse from the new test & mistranslate it to say jesus never lived. So now I can have proof that jesus in fact never existed. However I believe that if I did that, people would say I mistranslated the verse. (& they would be correct)

The Hebrew word for virgin is "bihsooluh". The Hebrew word used in Isaiah there is "almuh", which as you can see is a totally different word. Now I have heard Christians respond to this point by saying, well, in those days a young woman was a virgin. In fact that is completely untrue. In those days most young women were not virgins since they married very young. & even if they were, that is totally beside the point. The verse testifies that it is not talking about a virgin at all by not using the Hebrew word "bihsooluh" to show this idea.

I will also make another point regarding this. If you actually read Isaiah chapter 7 & look at the context, you will find that Isaiah is talking to King Ahaz & the princes of Judah there about a war where they were being attacked by Pehkach & Rihtseen. (two kings in the area) Isaiah is telling them that they will win the war against the 2 kings.

Now look at this logically... Isaiah is giving him a sign he will win this war. Now if the sign was jesus being born, how could this be a sign to King Ahaz that he will won the war, when jesus was born 532 years (according to Christian calculations of when jesus was born) later than this event? After all King Ahaz would have been long dead & the war long over before the date of the sign 532 years later!

Look at it this way... I borrow money from you, & to prove I will pay you back in a year for the loan, I say to you that G-D will make it rain in your house in 500 years from now. Now tell me, how is this a sign that I will pay you back in one year when in 500 years you & I will both be gone from this earth?

ok, now on to the third catagory. I call this the nonexistent one. This is covered by the concept that in order to claim that jesus fulfilled those prophecies, you have to believe the new test account of what it claims jesus did & how he lived his life. To this I respond, that this is called circular reasoning. You can't prove an event a book claims to be so, based on the book claiming it to be so.

If one used that logic to prove something I could claim that I can prove that I created the universe. I will prove it by writing a book saying I created the universe & then show you that the book says that I in fact created the universe!

In fact a book can only be used to verify something if there is definitive proof that the book itself can be proved.

I will now get into this a bit deeper. You may look at me & say, well you are a Jew & you believe the Torah Prophets & Holy Writings to be true, so how are you different than I who believes the new test to be true?

The answer to this is, if all I had was the Torah as my proof, then you would be correct. However this is not the case. (though actually the Torah is in fact proved of it's own volition because of certain tangible guarrantees it gives which can be independently verified & have withstood such verification as opposed to the new test which gives no such guarantees) In fact my proof lies in that millions of people who were my ancestors stood at mount Seenai & heard G-D speak to them. They then passed down this information uncontested to their children even till today. It is what is called in Hebrew, "mihsorah" (transmission) Based on this nationwide transmission that each Jew has received from his parents going all the way back to the actual event is why I believe that what I have been told about the Torah is indeed true & is in fact the word of G-D.

Now one may say, well Christians pass down their transmissions to their children too, so why are we different than you? The answer to this lies in the following two points...

1) Christian transmission did not exists to the Gentiles directly from jesus. jesus never spoke to the Gentiles at all. (as far as teaching them anything) He spoke only with Jews. So one says, let's go to the Jews & see what they have to say about jesus. Well, in fact the Jews do not believe in jesus! So you may say, what about his followers who were Jews? Well, in fact even the new test (which as I explained above is unverified) does not speak except of a handful of Jews who claimed jesus to be something special. The majority of Jews though, disagreed. Well, if 5 people tell you one thing & a million people tell you the opposite, & you have no particular reason to choose one over the other, it is purely a logical decision to believe the million over the 5 people (I say 5 because there are 5 writers in the new test)

2) The second reason lies in the transmission itself. jesus in fact did not fulfill any verifiable prophecy even according to Christian beliefs. This is why they say he will come back a second time. Look at this logically, if a person comes to you with a claim that they are a good investment because they have substantial sums of money behind them & so you should put your money into their business, you would ask them for verification, would you not? Well, if the person then responds to you by saying, I will give you such verification, not now, but in 2,000 years from now or even longer, would you invest in his business? Of course not! Same here.

In fact when a person wants to lie, what they do is they make their proofs so as to not be able to be verified. One way to do this is to say they will happen in the far future. If jesus was the true Messiah, he would have done the verifiable Messianic prophecies during his lifetime. Yet he did not.

If you want some specifics, I can give them to you. One of the things spoken about the Messiah is, that he will rebuild the Temple. Not a conceptual Temple inside a person, but a real Temple with real physical dimensions. Read Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 for verification of this.

Also, it says that animals will be herbivores. Here are the verses for verification... Isaiah chapter 11

6. And a wolf shall live with a lamb, and a leopard shall lie with a kid; and a calf and a lion cub and a fatling [shall lie] together, and a small child shall lead them.

7. And a cow and a bear shall graze together, their children shall lie; and a lion, like cattle, shall eat straw.

8. And an infant shall play over the hole of an old snake and over the eyeball of an adder, a weaned child shall stretch forth his hand.

9. They shall neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mount, for the land shall be full of knowledge of the Lord as water covers the sea bed.

10. And it shall come to pass on that day, that the root of Jesse, which stands as a banner for peoples, to him shall the nations inquire, and his peace shall be [with] honor.

Now I ask anybody here to tell me this can happen today. In fact this whole post was started by the fact that a man died while walking into a lions den.

There are many such "verifiable" verses that Scripture speaks about such as the ones above to show us the fact that the Messiah has come.

I will give one more... This is from Isaiah chapter 2...

1. The word that Isaiah, son of Amoz, prophesied concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2. And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.

3. And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4. And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

As you can see from here the Temple will be rebuilt. (a LITERAL Temple) Also you will see from here that nations will no longer not only not war any longer, but they will not even learn war, meaning there will not even be any such this as armies. Now who here today can testify that this has already come to be? In fact we have had more wars today & bigger ones than ever in history AFTER jesus came than before he came.

A famous Rabbi once said "woe is to the world if this is what it looks like after the Messiah has come". & he lived more than 700 years ago.

I understand that Christianity believes that he will fulfill this stuff when he comes back, but that kicks in my earlier point of when a person wants to lie, they tell that they will do it in a far off future time. (the check is in the mail)

One last thing I would like to mention. There is no single verse in the the Hebrew Scriptures that state that the Messiah will come twice. Please keep in mind that the idea of a Messiah is a JEWISH idea. Even jesus was a Jew. He told his message to Jews. Jews are the one's who expected a Messiah to come, not Gentiles. Gentiles only later on adopted this idea when they came to believe in jesus as the Messiah. So when you look at it in this context, you realize that it would be to Jewish Scriptures that one would go to see if there is such a concept as a second coming. In fact there is none.

Some may say, there is one verse that speaks about the Messiah coming on a donkey & another one that speaks about him coming on a white horse. Well, in fact this is not about 2 different comings, but rather it is the same coming. One refers to if Israel is righteous, then he will come on the horse & one refers to Israel if she is not completely righteous at the time. Then he will come on a donkey. But they are the same event denoting 2 possibilities.

Scriptures when speaking about the time of the coming of the Messiah says, "in it's time I will hasten it". (Isaiah chapter 60 verse 22) The Rabbi's ask, if it is in it's time how is it hastened, & if it is hastened, how is it in it's time?" The answer is, it is an "either-or thing". It depends on Israel. If Israel is righteous then G-D will hasten the coming of the Messiah. If not, then he will come in it's appointed time.

Here are the verses if anybody wants to see...

18. Violence shall no longer be heard in your land, neither robbery nor destruction within your borders, and you shall call salvation your walls and your gates praise.

19. You shall no longer have the sun for light by day, and for brightness, the moon shall not give you light, but the Lord shall be to you for an everlasting light, and your God for your glory.

20. Your sun shall no longer set, neither shall your moon be gathered in, for the Lord shall be to you for an everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be completed.

21. And your people, all of them righteous, shall inherit the land forever, a scion of My planting, the work of My hands in which I will glory.

22. The smallest shall become a thousand and the least a mighty nation; I am the Lord, in its time I will hasten it.

[medric822]

can I ask a question, why dont you ever type "God," but you type "G-D?"

[big shmooz]

can I ask a question, why dont you ever type "God," but you type "G-D?"

Heh heh. Actually I was asked this once before in a different thread a while back.

The answer is as follows. In truth on a computer there is no real issue involved regarding this. However on a hard copy there is a problem of erasure of the name of G-D. I worry that a printout may be made by somebody & then if they erase G-D's name, I will be responsible for this. in fact one of the 613 commandments is not to erase G-D's name.

G-D said in Scripture, to erase all forms of idol worship ... & then G-D said, "do not do this unto the L-rd your G-D". This is the commandment that forbids me to erase the name of G-D.

So by writing "G-D", I am in fact not writing G-D's name. Hence if it is erased at some future point, there is nothing wrong with what was done.

[NYM]

Interesting. Jews calculate the years based on when G-D created Adam. Hence the Jewish year is currently 5,766

Actually Mark B, Islam was founded shortly after Judaism. You see, God told Abraham to follow him, and that his decendents would be as many as the stars. Abraham had a son with thier servent because his wife couldnt. But his wife got mad. She wanted the servant and her son kicked out of the "clan" as they called families back then. Abraham then went on to have a son with his wife, but his other son, the son of the servant, supposedly started Islam.

I have an intersting question to bring up. Eventually, we will become to smart, even for ourselves. We will probably be able to bring back the dead to life eventually.(this may take place 1 mill years from now. who knows). But when and if we eventually find the technollogy to bring back the dead, do they go to heaven, and get sucked back out or what?

[big shmooz]

Actually Mark B, Islam was founded shortly after Judaism. You see, God told Abraham to follow him, and that his decendents would be as many as the stars. Abraham had a son with thier servent because his wife couldnt. But his wife got mad. She wanted the servant and her son kicked out of the "clan" as they called families back then. Abraham then went on to have a son with his wife, but his other son, the son of the servant, supposedly started Islam.

I have an intersting question to bring up. Eventually, we will become to smart, even for ourselves. We will probably be able to bring back the dead to life eventually.(this may take place 1 mill years from now. who knows). But when and if we eventually find the technollogy to bring back the dead, do they go to heaven, and get sucked back out or what?

Actually your information is incorrect. Yishmuhail (Ishmael) did not start Islam. Yishmuhail is the father of the Arab nations. Mohammad started Islam. You are mixing up 2 different things.

As far as your idea that we will be able to eventually revive the dead through medical procedure.... I completely disagree that this will ever happen. A person can not exist if their soul is not in their body. There is no medical procedure that can bring a soul into a body since the soul is not something physical.

[NYM]

Yea, but a soul doesnt exist in the medical world. At least I dont think it does. Because people do die, and then they revive them. They can revive someone who has been dead for 2 min and bring them back. That's why right before people die they say "The gates are opening" and then they die.

I person who almost died in my school claimed he was halfway up this "tunnel" and there was this beautiful light. But then it faded and he was back in a hospital room. I mean you never know.

[big shmooz]

Yea, but a soul doesnt exist in the medical world. At least I dont think it does. Because people do die, and then they revive them. They can revive someone who has been dead for 2 min and bring them back. That's why right before people die they say "The gates are opening" and then they die.

I person who almost died in my school claimed he was halfway up this "tunnel" and there was this beautiful light. But then it faded and he was back in a hospital room. I mean you never know.

This may have been a dream or a hallucination. Or it may have been that he really did see something. Regardless of this, it is not medical procedure that brings a soul back into the body. I don't know if he was dead or not. Perhaps he was not even dead.

As far as a person being brought back after 2 minutes of death, I do not accept this. Clinically dead is not necessarily the same thing as actual death. & even if the person was actually dead, I do not believe that a medical procedure can in fact cause the soul to return to the body. There is no medical instrument that can even detect a soul, much less one that can prod it to come back into a body.

You can not detect physically something that is not physical to begin with. This is why when angels appeared to men, they had to come, in something physical.

The only cases I know of where man was able to see something spiritual whilst being physical was in the cases of Moses who saw the "back of G-D". & where the 2 sons of Ah'haron & the Elders at mount Seenai "viewed G-D". & even there we have no idea what that actually means.

[timzeig]

I apologize to you, but in saying as you say above, you are in fact defeating what the Scriptures say in the verses I quoted. It is talking about obeying the law that was commanded this day. Such as the law not to eat unclean animals. The law of living in booths from the 15th of the 7th month for 7 days. The law of not mixing wool & linen (flax) together to wear. The law of putting fringes on a four cornered garment. The law of eating unleavened from the 15th of the first month for 7 days. The law of not taking 2 sisters (the second one) in marriage whilst the first one is alive. The law of not eating new grain till the day after Passover. The law of not putting rocks in your pocket. The law to marry your brothers wife if your brother died without children. I can go on & on. In all there are 613 laws. (plus the 7 Rabbinic ordinances)

As far as your point that jesus fufilled the law. I am not going to debate if he did or did not. However that has no bearing on You or I. If he fulfilled the law that is good for him. But that does not negate your obligation to do the same. This is what the verses I quoted above show us.

Imagine a person comes to you & is starving for food & you tell him, "you know what... I will eat some food for you. Then you will no longer be hungry." Watch how that person will then die from starvation!

You also claim here that the people chosen by G-D through jesus have also fulfilled the law. I ask you by what means have they done so? Did they marry their brother's wife if he had no kids? Did they abstain from unclean animals? Did they not mix milk & meat together? Did they do a circumcision? Did they abstain from the 39 catagories of work on the Sabbath? Did they let their land lie fallow on the 7th year? Did they abstain from planting two crops near each other? I could go on but the list get's real long. Anyway, I think you see my point.

I mean no disrespect to you in your quote of Romans. However I beg to disagree on them because as I see it they contradict the word of G-D in the verses I quoted above. It seems to me from your quotes (& if I am mistaken, please correct me on this) that you believe that G-D's commandments which He says to live by, are in fact a death trap. The law is not of sin & death, but of life & closeness to G-D. This is in fact the point of the verses I quoted above. To show that we LIVE by them. NOT die by them.

Btw... I am not against walking in the spirit of the law. In fact the Talmud teaches Jews the concept of "rachmuhnuh leebuh boeh" which in Aramaic translates as "G-D deisres the heart". However if there is no obediance there is no heart. Imagine you feel love for your child, so you go & murder it. Is that love? Of course not. One who disobeys G-D's law in fact shows he does not truly love G-D. (at least not enough to the extent that it deters him from disobeying) I am not saying we do not make mistakes. We in fact do. But our goal should always be, to reach perfection. Not rely on somebody else's perfection whether real or imaginary, to give us a get out of jail free card. For this is not love of G-D, but rather it is selfish desire & in the end will not make us Holy like G-D.

One more comment on your Romans quote. It seems to me based on what you say here, that it is not the law that is being fulfilled, rather the righteousness of it. Therefore in truth it is saying that one is not obeying the law. Hence it contradicts most clearly the verses that I quoted above.

As I said in an earlier post... if the new test. contradicts G-D's word in the Hebrew Scriptures, I pick the Hebrew Scriptures every time since it clearly came first, plus the fact that it is the direct word of G-D.

I hope I have not offended you. I realize I have come on rather strong. This was not my complete intention.

Also, please realize that I am not trying to convert you. I am only trying to show you why I believe as I do.

One more thing.... I want you to know that I respect you as a human being regardless of the differences in our faiths.

I am not offended at all nor can I be when discussing God's word.

Point #1: Can anyone fulfill the Law or reach for perfection? No. And God knew that. That's why Our blessed God sent His Son Christ Jesus who was the last "Lamb" sacrifice.

We cannot ever reach perfection nor fulfill the Law....ever!

This is a dispensation of grace not the Law.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Point #2 You said "The law is not of sin & death, but of life & closeness to G-D."

But in Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. And the meaning is, that the Law of God, demanding perfect purity, and denouncing every sin condemns the sinner, and consigns him to punishment. As the apostle had proved Rom. 1; 2; 3 that all were sinners, so it followed that if any attempted to be justified by the Law, they would be involved only in condemnation and wrath. Law is a rule of conduct. If no such rule is given and known, there can be no crime. Law expresses what may be done, and what may not be done. If there is no command to pursue a certain course, no injunction to forbid certain conduct, actions will be innocent. The connection in which this declaration is made here, seems to imply that as the Jews had a multitude of clear laws, and as the Gentiles had the laws of nature, there could be no hope of escape from the charge of their violation. Since human nature was depraved, and people were prone to sin, the more just and reasonable the laws, the less hope was there of being justified by the Law, and the more certainty was there that the Law would produce wrath and condemnation.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I hope this helps.

BTW, keep up the good work with your MVP baseball rosters which I enjoy using.

[UncleMo]

Hey alright, King James Version. I like this timezeig guy.

[medric822]

KJV is the way to go, I cant stand NIV, they cut out some verses.

[jogar84]

a great debate going on here. But you guys really should be talking more about evolution.

[UncleMo]

I evolved. I was dead, on my way to hell, and knew nothing about God except what my mom's catholic church taught me.

Then one day I got saved. Became a "new creature in Christ". 20 years ago this month (or was it in July). Most amazing thing that has ever happened to me.

That is an immediate evolution right there bro.

[RAM]

Heh heh. Actually I was asked this once before in a different thread a while back.

The answer is as follows. In truth on a computer there is no real issue involved regarding this. However on a hard copy there is a problem of erasure of the name of G-D. I worry that a printout may be made by somebody & then if they erase G-D's name, I will be responsible for this. in fact one of the 613 commandments is not to erase G-D's name.

G-D said in Scripture, to erase all forms of idol worship ... & then G-D said, "do not do this unto the L-rd your G-D". This is the commandment that forbids me to erase the name of G-D.

So by writing "G-D", I am in fact not writing G-D's name. Hence if it is erased at some future point, there is nothing wrong with what was done.

maybe you should consider typing it as G_D instead of G-D? because everytime i see it i think you're cursing.

[timzeig]

I evolved. I was dead, on my way to hell, and knew nothing about God except what my mom's catholic church taught me.

Then one day I got saved. Became a "new creature in Christ". 20 years ago this month (or was it in July). Most amazing thing that has ever happened to me.

That is an immediate evolution right there bro.

Amen and we thank you Sweet Lord Jesus!!! :D

[timzeig]

KJV is the way to go, I cant stand NIV, they cut out some verses.

I concur and it has and will always be the only version of God's Holy word I'll ever read.

[lautrec]

I beg to differ, but there's no point in explaining why because I have no desire to be dragged into this debate.

You thought so, too? That's what I was thinking. It all seemed very recent. It seems that every discussion even remotely linked to a God, Jesus, or Christianity turns into a multi-page collection of posts. It's almost like an infection. 8O

I think the reason for that MarkB, is because the topic is so controversial, and so passionate for so many. The subject seems to take on such deep emotional reactivity that regardless of which side you choose, it's a decision that will define your life. If you are one to believe what th Bible says, then you would recognize the predictions that Jesus said about that ery subject. He always told His followers that here is a cost to follow Him, and that if you choose to follow Him, you will be persecuted for His cause.

[lautrec]

Here's one little tidbit that I happen to believe in, simply because it makes so much sense to me:

Christianity is the only religion that God reaches out to man, instead of man reaching for God or for perfection.

God loved us enough to remove our sin with the gift of His Son. We do nothing, nor can we. Could you imagine a life where you were concerned with ervery minute thing like whether or not someone could print out the word God that you typed, then erase it? Unfortunately, we as man always find ways to inflict religion upon ourselves, instead of accepting the Way the Truth and the Light.

[medric822]

I evolved. I was dead, on my way to hell, and knew nothing about God except what my mom's catholic church taught me.

Then one day I got saved. Became a "new creature in Christ". 20 years ago this month (or was it in July). Most amazing thing that has ever happened to me.

That is an immediate evolution right there bro.

Has anyone ever noticed that in Catholic churches, there's no Bible, only pamphlets that they want you to read?

See, Catholics, in my opinion, know whats going on, and that what they teach is wrong, but they make too much money this way, so they dont bother to correct their ways. I'm not talking about the average Joe Catholic, but the Pope and Cardinals (not the St. Louis kind either, although nobody likes them :laff:). This is, in fact, only a theory.

[big shmooz]

I am not offended at all nor can I be when discussing God's word.

Point #1: Can anyone fulfill the Law or reach for perfection? No. And God knew that. That's why Our blessed God sent His Son Christ Jesus who was the last "Lamb" sacrifice.

We cannot ever reach perfection nor fulfill the Law....ever!

This is a dispensation of grace not the Law.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Point #2 You said "The law is not of sin & death, but of life & closeness to G-D."

But in Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. And the meaning is, that the Law of God, demanding perfect purity, and denouncing every sin condemns the sinner, and consigns him to punishment. As the apostle had proved Rom. 1; 2; 3 that all were sinners, so it followed that if any attempted to be justified by the Law, they would be involved only in condemnation and wrath. Law is a rule of conduct. If no such rule is given and known, there can be no crime. Law expresses what may be done, and what may not be done. If there is no command to pursue a certain course, no injunction to forbid certain conduct, actions will be innocent. The connection in which this declaration is made here, seems to imply that as the Jews had a multitude of clear laws, and as the Gentiles had the laws of nature, there could be no hope of escape from the charge of their violation. Since human nature was depraved, and people were prone to sin, the more just and reasonable the laws, the less hope was there of being justified by the Law, and the more certainty was there that the Law would produce wrath and condemnation.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ Our Lord.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I hope this helps.

BTW, keep up the good work with your MVP baseball rosters which I enjoy using.

I will attempt the best I can in answering your points one at a time.

You claimed... Can anyone fulfill the Law or reach for perfection? No. And God knew that. That's why Our blessed God sent His Son Christ Jesus who was the last "Lamb" sacrifice. We cannot ever reach perfection nor fulfill the Law....ever!

My response is, sure people can reach perfection. It says this exact thing in Deut. as I quoted in a previous post in this thread. There is also a verse that I have not quoted that says "& righteousness will be counted to us because we will guard to do all these commandments". I must add here that I am not referring to "fulfilling the law" because the law is not something one can fulfill. The law is something one obeys. (or disobeys)

As far as the last lamb sacrifice, here too I beg to disagree. If you read Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 you will find that G_D speaking of a future event in a vision to Ezekiel shows him the third Temple (the one the true Messiah will build when he comes) & in it G_D commands the offerings be resumed. (including by the way, the sin offerings)

Also, the problem with your grace is, that in the end you are messed up by it. because you are seeing it as a free ticket. Somebody else is earnign your place for you. But then my question to you is... how will you feel in all eternity from this? The answer is shame. That's all you are left with.

I want to add that this is one of the basic disagreements between Christianity & Judaism. A great Rabbi met an angel & asked the angel, why did G_D not just put human beings in eternal life? Why do we have to go through this world first? The angel answered him, "the bread of shame". Meaning, that if one is given a free ticket, all they will feel for all eternity is shame for not having earned their place. However G_D loved us enough to not want us to feel shame for all eternity. So He made it that we must earn our place in eternal life. That way we can feel good about ourselves in eternal life.

Next point...

Your response to my comment of "The law is not of sin & death, but of life & closeness to G-D." is one of quoting from different quotes from the new test. My point is, it is a contradiction of G_D's word (these quotes) in the Hebrew Scriptures.

However I would like to elaborate a bit...

You quote about the idea that if there is no law, there is no crime. You are correct, but remember this too... if there is no law there is also no righteousness. There is also no closeness to G_D. There is no life. So what does one come away with if there is no law? The answer is, one is completely empty, devoid of any relationship with G-D. Basically in one word... dead. I ask you , Is this our goal in life? Death?

Another thing.... Why do you think G_D would have given the law if the law was not a good thing for us? Do you think G_D gives us bad things? Why would he do something that will only end up condemning us? If you shall answer as I have heard other Christians say to me, that it is to show us that we need grace. I do not accept that as an answer because G_D could simply have done this from the very beginning too & not trip us up. (according to your understanding that this is what the law does)

One more thing... where do Christians draw the line when it comes to law? Is murder permissible for Christians? After all it is a "law" not to murder. Is robbery alright? What about speaking evil about another person? What about lying? Are these things permissible? After all, these are all laws G_D gave.

I know Christianity speaks about loving others, however if you say this, then you have law too & you are in fact back where you started from in that there is law & so one can indeed mess up & according to your understanding WILL mess up. What are you left with then. To me it seems, you are left with death. Am I mistaken? If so, why?

As far as the rosters, the main credit goes to Totte for those. I do give him some info on some players, but his is the bulk of the work. Therefore the thanks should head his way. However I do appreciate your sentiment. Thanks.

[maxbjr]

Things always go bad when a person or a group figures out a way to make money from a faith. After awhile increasing wealth and power become more importaint then serving the faith, (whatever that faith may be). There's no point in using any one religion or faith as an example, it has happened to most of them at one time or another. Jesus said it best when he said, "My Father's house is to be a house of prayer, but you've turned it into a den of theives" He could have made that statment about nearly any religion.

PS. This is the first thread I've ever read about God and religion that didn't devolve into name calling and personal attack agaisnt people by the 2nd or 3rd page. Kinda nice to nice that people here are adult enough here not to lower ourselves to that level. Thanks all :)

[big shmooz]

Here's one little tidbit that I happen to believe in, simply because it makes so much sense to me:

Christianity is the only religion that God reaches out to man, instead of man reaching for God or for perfection.

I happen to agree with you in a way. However I can only speak for Judaism, since it is my faith. (& I will) I must say though that I do not see that as a positive aspect. In Judaism we believe that a man must indeed reach out to G_D first, but that is all part of G_D reaching out to us. Because G_D wants us to earn our place in eternal life so we do not suffer shame, (read above post) He asks us to make the first move. If He gave it to us, it's not ours.

[big shmooz]

timzeig. I also noticed in your quote, you quoted the following... "Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

I am genuinely puzzled by this quote, since it blatently contradicts both the book of Deut. when it says in chapter 1 verse 8. "See, I have set the land before you; come and possess the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them and their descendants after them". Also in the book of Joshua where it speaks about how G_D swore to give the land to Abraham & his seed & in the conquering of the land by Israel at that time, was fulfilled this promise. There are other places that EXPLICITELY say this too, but those two places come to mind offhand.

Edit: a few more verses in Deut. chapter 1 ...

20. And I said to you, "You have come to the mountain of the Amorites, which the Lord, our God, is giving us.

21. Behold, the Lord, your God, has set the land before you; go up and possess it, as the Lord, God of your fathers has spoken to you; you shall neither fear nor be dismayed."