Who is the most overrated player in the major leagues?

[Sean O]

Jeter's good, but he's not the god so many people think he is.

Eckstein won the World Series MVP awards because he was the best player in a span of five games.

Eckstein: .364 .391 .500

Molina: .412 .500 .529

Rolen: .421 .476 .737

Eckstein in the first 3 games: 0 for 13

Eckstein during the regular season: 152nd of 160 in OPS

Eckstein is not a good player.

To say Adam Dunn is overrated, good god, you know nothing about baseball. He's one of the most underrated players in the league.

And Derek Jeter was the 2nd best SS in all of baseball last year, putting up incredible numbers. Yes, his defense is historically atrocious by nearly every measure, but he makes up for it with his bat. Jeter can never approach the Captain Intangibles BS that writers and sportscasters put on him, but that's not his fault.

[sdoyle7798]

I don't think anyone here would be saying Eckstein is overrated if he hadn't won the WS MVP.

People say he is horrible, and I don't know why. Here are his stats:

2006 batting

Career batting

Career fielding

While is OBP could be better, I don't find those stats to be horrible. I know stats can be interpreted many ways, but players and owners use them in negotiations, so I'm using them here.

Tell me why you think he is horrible, if you do, and we can discuss it.

EDIT: Because my spelling sucks

[jogar84]

Barry Zito. Come on, a 7 year contract for a declining pitcher? What gives?

[sdoyle7798]

Eckstein during the regular season: 152nd of 160 in OPS

Sean, as I am not a big sabermetrics guy, can you tell me what the OPS was for most leadoff batters?

I know OPS is on base percentage + slugging percentage. As I said earlier, I know Eck's OBP should be better as a lead-off guy.

The reason I ask is I can't imagine too many leadoff guys having a great SLG%, which would affect their OPS. I could be wrong though, and since you are the stat guru, I'm asking you.

[Sean O]

Of players hitting leadoff (200 ABs minimum):

Eckstein is 28th of 36 in OPS

20th of 36 in OBP

30 of 36 in SLG

In SLG among all players, he's 155th of 160.

So, it's not like Eckstein is bottom of the barrel among players, he has a questionable skillset. He can't steal bases (7 SB vs. 6 CS is horrifically bad), which is the primary difference between him and the classic leadoff guy. He's ok at defense, but the fielding bible wasn't too high on his skills, iirc.

firejoemorgan had a glorious compendium of the insane articles written about Eckstein in the wake of the WS MVP. You should definitely check it out, to see why I believe he's so overrated.

[sdoyle7798]

Of players hitting leadoff (200 ABs minimum):

Eckstein is 28th of 36 in OPS

20th of 36 in OBP

30 of 36 in SLG

In SLG among all players, he's 155th of 160.

So, it's not like Eckstein is bottom of the barrel among players, he has a questionable skillset. He can't steal bases (7 SB vs. 6 CS is horrifically bad), which is the primary difference between him and the classic leadoff guy. He's ok at defense, but the fielding bible wasn't too high on his skills, iirc.

firejoemorgan had a glorious compendium of the insane articles written about Eckstein in the wake of the WS MVP. You should definitely check it out, to see why I believe he's so overrated.

Thank you for that. I believe if he got his OBP up, then his OPS would be more toward the middle of the pack than it is now.

And I think your last line proves my point. If he hadn't won the WS MVP, no one would be calling him overrated.

So a few articles over the span of a month or two > an entire career exceeding what people thought he could do? Remember, he was never supposed to make it as a pro ballplayer. At best, I believe you could say he was overrated for three games, maybe a series. But that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

EDIT: Why can't I spell tonight?

[Guest]

Its not a theory, its a widely recognized fact that players with low average, high strikeouts, and high walks, tend to actually be more disciplined.

Theory - the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

Tell that to Soriano, Francoeur, B. Hall, Monroe, Peralta... this might take all night.

[HardcoreLegend]

But here's the thing: When Derek Jeter wakes up in the morning and fails to **** excellence, isn't he by default...not living up to the hype. What if he only saves 3 women from a burning building by lunch?

Eckstein ISN'T middle of the pack defensively. He's one of the 5 best defensive SS in the NL if not the entire league.

David Eckstein of all people as the most overrated? Think of all the players that are overpaid, overhyped and underproduce. David Eckstein doesn't even come close to the disparity in talent vs. hype that Derek Jeter, J.D. Drew, Alfonso Soriano, Adam Dunn, or how about David Wright?

David Wright makes some spectacular defensive plays in the field but still boots +/-20 balls per year. Offensively, Scott Rolen swinging a dead arm put up very comparable statistics. Wrights going to be a fine player for many years to come but he's already being dubbed the next Mike Schmidt.

[fred13]

Adrian Beltre

[TwentySeven]

Adrian Beltre

Why exactly is he overrated?

Come on guys, you have to tell us WHY you consider these people are overrated.

[bighurt27]

KERRY WOOD

[Sean O]

Eckstein ISN'T middle of the pack defensively. He's one of the 5 best defensive SS in the NL if not the entire league.

The Fielding Bible, which looked at every single play made by a regular between 2003-2005, and compiled all of the numbers by the location of the play. Eckstein's results:

2003-2005: 15th of 31

2003: 14th of 35

2004: 20th of 34

2005: 20th of 32

David Eckstein of all people as the most overrated? Think of all the players that are overpaid, overhyped and underproduce. David Eckstein doesn't even come close to the disparity in talent vs. hype that Derek Jeter, J.D. Drew, Alfonso Soriano, Adam Dunn, or how about David Wright?

Ok, here we go. Some quotes about Eckstein:

"I think if Norman Rockwell were alive the guy that he would paint more than anyone else would be David Eckstein."

"If you scrapped the rosters for these two teams [Cards and Tigers], and started over by holding a draft between two managers, there are a bunch of guys who would be drafted ahead of David Eckstein. But if you ask the same managers: 'which player do you think is most likely to be on the winning team?', then David Eckstein will be the first name on that list."

"If intangibles were a quantifiable statistic, Eckstein would surely rank among the league leaders in that category."

"[He] even contributed to the Tigers' bad luck."

"He may look like a puppy but he plays like a big dog."

"Although St. Louis is still best known for Albert Pujols’s 450-foot home runs, Eckstein’s 10-foot bunts can be just as productive."

"I think Cardinals shortstop David Eckstein, who might be 5 feet 7 inches, 165 pounds after a week-long Pizza Hut jag, is more deserving of a Cooperstown bust than McGwire is."

"Tigers centerfielder Curtis Granderson turned a routine out -- by that pest Eckstein, of course -- into a rally-starting double when he flat out fell in centerfield"

"What he lacks in height, he makes up for with pure ... I'm not even sure of the word for it. Heart?"

All this (each from a different article) from a player who hit .292 .350 .344 and started 0-13 in the WS.

The other people you mentioned routinely, or at least in 2006, put up .900+ OPS seasons, several with above-average defense. And what hype does JD Drew have? Everyone calls him Nancy and says how he sucks, and yet he puts up .400 OBP/.500 SLG seasons each year.

David Wright makes some spectacular defensive plays in the field but still boots +/-20 balls per year. Offensively, Scott Rolen swinging a dead arm put up very comparable statistics. Wrights going to be a fine player for many years to come but he's already being dubbed the next Mike Schmidt.

Fielding bible says that Wright sucks at defense, even though Davenports disagree (I'll always take the bible over the others). The difference, of course, is that Wright is 23 and putting up .311 .381 .531 lines, while at 23 Eckstein couldn't even approach that in high A-ball.

(And no one thinks Beltre or Wood are any good anymore)

[jhath]

hey, i think wood is still good... :)

[HardcoreLegend]

Sean, I missing in any of those quotes were it says Eckstein is a)talented b)good c) one of the best.

How can you be overrated when you basically are heralded as being not talented and your nickname is 'Just Enough'?

"Although St. Louis is still best known for Albert Pujols’s 450-foot home runs, Eckstein’s 10-foot bunts can be just as productive."

I like that quote because it is true. Two outs, top of the 9th inning, down 4-2 in Game 5 of the 2005 NLCS, it was David Eckstein that battled through a long AB to finally poke a single into leftfield with 2 strikes that got that rally going. I'll always remember Pujols taking Lidge's manhood but you can't give Pujols all the credit. They've yet to make legal the bases empty 3-run HR.

My contention with your claim that Eckstein is the most overated is that who in the hell is really rating him that high? No one. Unless of course you disagree that he has taken minimal athletic prowse and turned it into above average baseball production.

The difference, of course, is that Wright is 23 and putting up .311 .381 .531 lines, while at 23 Eckstein couldn't even approach that in high A-ball.

Who is comparing Eckstein to Wright? David Wright is built like a tightend and Eck is lucky enough to be the only person in his family without kidney disease.

[jhath]

Sean, I missing in any of those quotes were it says Eckstein is a)talented b)good c) one of the best.

Oh please.

"I think Cardinals shortstop David Eckstein, who might be 5 feet 7 inches, 165 pounds after a week-long Pizza Hut jag, is more deserving of a Cooperstown bust than McGwire is."

Last time i checked, cooperstown was only for "a)talented b)good c) one of the best."

[krawhitham]

The Fielding Bible, which looked at every single play made by a regular between 2003-2005, and compiled all of the numbers by the location of the play. Eckstein's results:

2003-2005: 15th of 31

2003: 14th of 35

2004: 20th of 34

2005: 20th of 32

3rd in league in Fpct, 4th in Zone Rating in 2006

so much for the The Fielding Bible

[krawhitham]

Alex Gonzalez is the most overrated, according to Cincinnati media he is the 2nd coming of Christ

[Emil]

Barry Bonds

I agree with you, Totte. Maybe the best player of all-time, is indeed overrated. Forget that he's 2nd on the all-time HR list, forget how many MVP awards he have one. Why don't we forget all about his career stats. He is overrated. period.

Nice thinking, Totte. Hope you realize my sarcasm.

[Sean O]

I agree with you, Totte. Maybe the best player of all-time, is indeed overrated. Forget that he's 2nd on the all-time HR list, forget how many MVP awards he have one. Why don't we forget all about his career stats. He is overrated. period.

Nice thinking, Totte. Hope you realize my sarcasm.

You know who I think is overrated? Babe Ruth. Also, Jesus.

And notice how kraw maligns statistics, then uses them instead of someone who watched every single play of the last 3 years. This, folks, is hypocrisy.

[HardcoreLegend]

Oh please.

Last time i checked, cooperstown was only for "a)talented b)good c) one of the best."

Do you think that was a praise of Eckstein or an indictment of shunned steroid user Mark McGwire?

I read that as, "Mark McGwire has no heart and didn't play baseball the right way because he used steroids and a guy with no talent, is physically inferior to most of the league who plays hard deserves it more than Mac".

[jhath]

obviously a praise of eckstein. obviously. obviously. McGwires just the only card in recent memory with a chance of HOF

[HardcoreLegend]

obviously a praise of eckstein. obviously. obviously. McGwires just the only card in recent memory with a chance of HOF

Like Bruce Sutter.

[jhath]

yup, who's final game was 18 years ago

edit: who spent more time on the cubs than he did the cards

edit: who won his cy young with the cubs

[sdoyle7798]

The Fielding Bible, which looked at every single play made by a regular between 2003-2005, and compiled all of the numbers by the location of the play. Eckstein's results:

2003-2005: 15th of 31

2003: 14th of 35

2004: 20th of 34

2005: 20th of 32

Ok, here we go. Some quotes about Eckstein:

"I think if Norman Rockwell were alive the guy that he would paint more than anyone else would be David Eckstein."

"If you scrapped the rosters for these two teams [Cards and Tigers], and started over by holding a draft between two managers, there are a bunch of guys who would be drafted ahead of David Eckstein. But if you ask the same managers: 'which player do you think is most likely to be on the winning team?', then David Eckstein will be the first name on that list."

"If intangibles were a quantifiable statistic, Eckstein would surely rank among the league leaders in that category."

"[He] even contributed to the Tigers' bad luck."

"He may look like a puppy but he plays like a big dog."

"Although St. Louis is still best known for Albert Pujols’s 450-foot home runs, Eckstein’s 10-foot bunts can be just as productive."

"I think Cardinals shortstop David Eckstein, who might be 5 feet 7 inches, 165 pounds after a week-long Pizza Hut jag, is more deserving of a Cooperstown bust than McGwire is."

"Tigers centerfielder Curtis Granderson turned a routine out -- by that pest Eckstein, of course -- into a rally-starting double when he flat out fell in centerfield"

"What he lacks in height, he makes up for with pure ... I'm not even sure of the word for it. Heart?"

All this (each from a different article) from a player who hit .292 .350 .344 and started 0-13 in the WS.

The other people you mentioned routinely, or at least in 2006, put up .900+ OPS seasons, several with above-average defense. And what hype does JD Drew have? Everyone calls him Nancy and says how he sucks, and yet he puts up .400 OBP/.500 SLG seasons each year.

Fielding bible says that Wright sucks at defense, even though Davenports disagree (I'll always take the bible over the others). The difference, of course, is that Wright is 23 and putting up .311 .381 .531 lines, while at 23 Eckstein couldn't even approach that in high A-ball.

(And no one thinks Beltre or Wood are any good anymore)

Again Sean, I see this as you saying a month or two of post WS print > a career of surpassing expectations.

BTW, that Rockwell comment (that was a weird one, IMO) and the HOF comment (which I agree with Hardcore, that was just the guy saying McGwire doesn’t deserve to be in) aside, what is being said in those quotes is “Eckstein is gritty and has an immense will to win despite his skill set.†He is regarded as one of the best bunters in the league (so says the NY Times here), so his moving runners up or in executing a squeeze, which LaRussa loves to do, he can be very productive. And, c’mon, that Granderson bit is about him FALLING DOWN. Eck just happened to be the guy that hit the ball. I think you are reaching on that one… :cool:

Sean, I respect you in the highest order. I just think you are wrong in this case.

EDIT: Forgot to link NY Times story

[Emil]

I have a question. Is Ken Griffey Jr. overrated? I mean, he's hurt all the time. But are people still seing him as the guy who can hit 40-50 HRs?