War in Iraq

[Immac]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yxmhYo4Ot34

[brutushayesosu]

^^^^is that really his daughter? hahaha

[Immac]

^^^^is that really his daughter? hahaha

yep real pic (except for the simpsons guy LOL)

[brutushayesosu]

That belongs in the LMAO section. Im going to have that image in my head for days. How old is that girl? Like 13 ?

[Immac]

I don't know. But look at his son -- He's got a serial killers stare.

[el_jefe061]

Don't forget about these things, too. I haven't forgotten about WMD's nor have most people I know. It's not really an issue at this point. We're so far into this thing that we can't refer back to it and have any effect on whats going on over there now.

I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of things de-bunking the legitimacy of these "trucks". But you've missed my point completely. We didn't need to say anything about WMD's. We didn't need anything about terrorism. We needed to be diplomatic with an honest approach saying "Let's get this dictator out, he's a cancer to his people and the region. That's all we need to say". We go into Bosnia to stop genocide, you're telling me we couldn't go into Iraq to get rid of a dictator who kills his own people regularly?

Think about this: The NYPD has more police officers covering New York City than we have troops in Iraq, and Iraq is roughly the size of California. What do you think 150,000 troops per square mile is spread out over all that? No wonder Iraq is so unstable. First of all, which dumbass in the White House didn't think about this? No matter how bad many of these generals may be, they have enough sense to say "We need more troops than that." Did Rumsfeld, Bush, and Cheney just not care? If we had 15,000 (at the very least) troops from ten European Union Countries, and 10,000 troops from a few Arab countries, we'd be in great shape.

[The Big O]

Hell, I say bring Communism back as our main enemy.

We kind of have although "terrorism" is our new communism. While listening to Bush tonight I couldn't help remind myself of LBJ's speech on when he sent in more troops to "help" the South Vietnamese. The Truman Doctrine of fighting and aiding countries against communism drove us to go to Vietnam and Bush's similar decree of fighting terrorists wherever they were to keep the USA safe has driven us to Iraq and Afghanistan. The only problem is communism was relatively contained within certain countries, while anybody can be a terrorist. Iraq is going to be the next Vietnam if we don't get out of there after this "last chance" I only hope we've learned our lesson the first time. Bush says pulling out of Iraq would be admitting failure and would hurt the country, well we pulled out of Vietnam and still managed to be a superpower. Heck Ford was a hero for doing it. It was a mistake to go into Iraq in the first place without an allied coalition. I'm not so sure what the world would do to us if we just basically said "my bad" and got out of there. The puppet government in place will be overthrown once we leave anyway, no matter how "strong" they are.

I could also start a debate on how we are forcing democracy on nations much like the Spanish tried to force Christianity on the Native Americans, but I'll leave that for another thread.

[brutushayesosu]

Just a horrible looking family all around LOL.

That girl reminds me of the Chris Farley, "My Dad's Mayor Skit" for some reason.

[Immac]

I like how he said we need more troops to "hold ground" in Iraq. As if you can hold ground against some guys who fight out of their houses.

I also liked how he said that supplies were being shipped out of Iran to the Iraqi revolutionaries. Excuse for invading Iran?

Could Bush possibly be THAT stupid?

[el_jefe061]

I like how he said we need more troops to "hold ground" in Iraq. As if you can hold ground against some guys who fight out of their houses.

It's the right idea, but 20,000 troops is hardly going to help. Maybe if we had 100,000 more, but I don' think 20,000 is going to do the job.

[brutushayesosu]

yeah. Im afraid that before Bush leaves office Iran will not nuclear facilities.

Sending more troops to the region is half for Iraq and half for if Iran gets involved. By our hands or theirs.

[AstroEric]

It's worth SportsCenter being shitty to get this kind of stuff daily.

[brutushayesosu]

It's worth SportsCenter being **** to get this kind of stuff daily.

Im loving Olbermann. Check out youtube for more videos. I like how he closes each show witha count of how many days since Mission Accomplished was declared.

[Immac]

The only reasonable option is to send 50,000+ more troops and remove the Maliki Administration and disarm the Mahdi Army. This will never happen though, unfortunately.

It looks like we will have to close our eyes, make that leap of blind faith and trust President George W. Bush and his new Iraq plan. What other option do we have?

[Sean O]

Yeah, I'd take terrorism over communism, since Communist governments have been directly linked to 94 million deaths in the 20th century. That's kind of ridiculous.

And this troop surge is such a joke it's not even worth discussing. I can't believe anyone still supports Bush.

[Hory]

It looks like we will have to close our eyes, make that leap of blind faith and trust President George W. Bush and his new Iraq plan. What other option do we have?

hmm, yes, if only there was a group that would examine the situation in a non-partisan fashion and propose a way out of this cluster****.

[brutushayesosu]

Pretty much sums it up

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CFijzDyJnVE

[Immac]

Bush is probably sitting alone in his bedroom drinking a beer right now.

[Immac]

Pretty much sums it up

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CFijzDyJnVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSn4EDlLOh0&NR

[AstroEric]

Yeah, I'd take terrorism over communism, since Communist governments have been directly linked to 94 million deaths in the 20th century. That's kind of ridiculous.

(Psst. I wasn't really supporting Communism. I was being facetious.)

Onward Christian Soldiers!

[Hory]

(Psst. I wasn't really supporting Communism. I was being facetious.)

Onward Christian Soldiers!

And of course "terrorism" is a tactic not an ideology like communism.

For example, the first modern terrorist attack was conducted by militant Zionists whose political aims couldn't be any more different than that of modern-day Al-Queda.

[lautrec]

HMmm,,,,

This war, as with just about anything tried in a free society, is a matter of perspective, IMHO.

There are arguments to be made for removing Saddam and the Baath party, insuring the flow of oil, etc.

There are certainly arguments to be made to oppose this war as well.

There have been plenty of "knee-jerk" reactions for and against the war, i.e. Toby kieth, The Dixie Chicks, alec Baldwin, Robert Redford, Richard Belzer, etc., etc.

The great thing, is that in this experiment called the United States, we are free and able to discuss these things.

I can understand a veteran's point of view, because they are the ones who ultimately do most of the work many of us don't want to do. I am a veteran, and I don't regret my time that I served, even when I was helping to protect those with no sense of duty or appreciation for those who are protecting them. I am in no way trying to equate this particular war with WW2, or any other, I am merely saying that right or wrong, I feel like I personally owe much to those who take up the mantle of defense for me and my family.

I still love this country. I still think it is great. Call me naive, many have before. I would gladly serve and sacrifce for the greater good, because I believe this country was founded on principles of good. And that good is, was and always will be God.

[ronmexico]

People have been complaining about the war in Iraq since day one. At the start, we had about a 70% approval rate of the war, and now, it's about 70% against. Late December 2006, the death toll in Iraq has reached 3,000 since the start of the war on March 20, 2003. And although this is a large number, people have to realize that this is war. People die in battle. And 3,000 is a lot of people. An average of 2.17 people a day. Although this is 2.17 people is 2.17 too many, we have to realize that this is a small number as compared to the 8.2 people from hunting accidents, 139.72 from car accidents, 8219.17 AIDS related deaths, and 438.35 Lung Cancer deaths that occur every day. In comparison to the average fatality in Iraq, these numbers are much worse. So unless people are willing to stop hunting, diving, smoking, and having irresponsible sex, these people shouldn't talk about bringing our boys back home and leaving Iraq hanging out to dry.

Most of the World already hates the United States. And us barging into Iraq didn't help things either. But imaging how much the world would hate us if we just pulled out and left Iraq to fend for themselves. Communism would easily take over the country. Just what we need is to have communism in the Middle East. Also, Most countries would either raise the prices of our overseas imports or just refuse to sell them to us. Imaging the price of Gas then, or food, or clothing. About the only thing that’s still made in America today are Rolls Royce’s and Firestone tires. So, the only solution, is to finish what we started in Iraq, and to finish rebuilding, training, and helping them become a self-dependant country. And hopefully this would strengthen the bond between the U.S. and other countries.

I read through all 4 pages up until this post, and I still don't understand how this stat can be true. 8000+ AIDS related deaths a day? By that math we'd have about 3 million deaths a year due to AIDS.

Also, IMO, it's either pull the hell out of Iraq, or flood it with troops. We had 1.1 million troops defending our post in West Germany before the wall came down, how do you expect 160,000 to keep order a vast nation like Iraq.

I'm no Bush-basher in any normal situation, but my friend did a little research, and found speeches from George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler, and removed all the references that would identify the person giving the speech (such as Bush speaking of WMD's, since those would not be available in the 30's and 40's) and sadly, the speeches proved to be eerily similar. I was quite amused, but then quickly got fearful of what may happen (obviously I'm not intimating another holocaust).

[AstroEric]

And of course "terrorism" is a tactic not an ideology like communism.

No way, man! Terrorist = Muslim, right? Right?

[Immac]

Bush is sending the boys in without decent armor AGAIN!!! WTF?

Better armor lacking for new troops in Iraq

By David Wood

Sun reporter

Originally published January 10, 2007

WASHINGTON // The thousands of troops that President Bush is expected to order to Iraq will join the fight largely without the protection of the latest armored vehicles that withstand bomb blasts far better than the Humvees in wide use, military officers said.

Vehicles such as the Cougar and the M1117 Armored Security Vehicle have proven ability to save lives, but production started late and relatively small numbers are in use in Iraq, mostly because of money shortages, industry officials said.

More than 1,000 American troops have been killed by roadside bombs since the war began in March 2003. At present there are fewer than 1,000 of the new armored trucks in Iraq. At $500,000 to $700,000 each, they cost more than twice as much as a standard Humvee, but already they are proving their worth.

"They are expensive, but they are going to save lives," said Gen. James T. Conway, commandant of the Marine Corps, during a recent trip to Iraq, where he reviewed the service's effort to get more of the vehicles.

Most American troops patrol in the 20,000 Humvees the Pentagon has sent to Iraq. Most of those vehicles have been layered with added armor plating as the Pentagon has struggled over the past three years to counter the increasingly powerful and sophisticated roadside bombs, or improvised explosive devices, planted by insurgents.

Two recent incidents illustrate the problem with the M1114 Humvee: The weight of added armor can make it unwieldy. And even with the extra armor, its flat bottom absorbs the full impact from bombs buried in the road, often buckling or breaking the chassis in half.

On Dec. 30, Army Sgt. John Michael Sullivan, 22, of Hixon, Tenn., was killed when his Humvee was struck by an IED in the Sadr City neighborhood of Baghdad. Four days earlier, Army Spc. Joseph A. Strong, 21, of Lebanon, Ind., and Spc. Douglas L. Tinsley, 21, of Chester, S.C., died when their Humvee rolled into a canal during a patrol in Baghdad.

"The problem with the M1114s is, they are overloaded and flat-bottomed," said Maj. Gen. Richard C. Zilmer, the senior Marine commander in Iraq.

Today, the Marines are moving quickly to buy and deploy combat vehicles with a key design improvement over the Humvee: They are built with a V-shaped hull that deflects a blast up and outward, leaving passengers shaken, but alive.

Under a $125 million contract, the Marines are buying 100 Cougar and 44 Buffalo armored trucks, known collectively as MRAP, for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles, made by Force Protection Inc., a small company in Ladson, S.C. The firm is producing 40 vehicles a month, said its vice president, Mike Aldrich, a retired Army officer educated at West Point.

Aldrich said the design grew out of a joint Army and Marine Corps request "designed to literally stop the bleeding from up-armored Humvees in some of the most dangerous areas in Iraq and Afghanistan."

The military services said last month that they need 4,060 of the MRAP vehicles, with 2,500 for the Army, 538 for the Navy and 1,022 for the Marines. The delivery schedule is uncertain. Meanwhile, a permanent replacement for the Humvee, incorporating the latest design and armor improvements, is years away, Pentagon officials said, and mired in technical and cost disputes.

Separately, the Army is buying the 15-ton M1117 armored vehicle for its military police. The V-hull vehicles were in production in the late 1990s but were canceled by the Army as unnecessary. In June 2004, the service decided that it needed them after all. The Army has said it needs 2,600.

Today, Textron Inc. is producing 48 per month at its New Orleans plant under a contract for 1,250 vehicles.

"That's all they had the money for," said Clay Moise, vice president for business development for Textron's Marine and Land division.

But a lack of money only partly explains why, four years into the war, there is a shortage of vehicles that can effectively survive an IED.

"The key reason it is taking so long is pretty simple: At each step along the way for the past four years, the key policymakers have assumed we were just months away from beginning to withdraw" from Iraq, said Loren B. Thompson, a national security analyst at the Lexington Institute, a nonpartisan think tank in Arlington, Va. "As a result, they never made long-term plans for occupying the country effectively."

Aldrich said the explanation is more complex.

"This is a radically different vehicle, and it took time, even under the pressure of war, for this country to tool up and meet the demand," he said. "Our contribution to the delay was not being able to press a button and instantly start producing 20 a week. And the warfighter had to adjust and realize this wasn't a temporary problem - that we are more likely to face this type of attack than any other for decades to come."

The Humvee, of course, has its admirers. In its newer versions, such as the M1114, added armor is matched with a more powerful, turbocharged diesel engine and other improvements.

"I love it. It's not at all hard to drive," said Army Spec. Jessica Dersch, 22, of Erie, Pa. "I've been through three explosions in 10 months," she said in a recent interview outside Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi.

But the IED threat to Humvees is reflected in the Marines' hard-won experience in Anbar province.

"If you are hit by an IED, your chance of survival is four or five times greater in an MRAP than in a M1114," said a Marine commander, referring to the standard Humvee.

About half of the Marines' combat vehicles in Anbar are Humvees, and these are associated with 60 percent of the combat deaths and 65 percent of the wounded Marines, officers said. By comparison, attacks on V-hull armored vehicles have resulted in 2.1 percent of Marine combat deaths and 3.5 percent of the service's wounded.

A report released yesterday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, said the IED problem came about in large measure because there were not enough U.S. troops in Iraq after the 2003 invasion to secure Saddam Hussein's ammunition caches.

In the weeks after the invasion, vast amounts of anti-personnel and anti-tank mines, artillery shells and other explosives were stolen from unguarded Iraqi arsenals.

"IEDs made from looted explosives have caused about half of all U.S. combat fatalities and casualties in Iraq and have killed hundreds of Iraqis," the GAO said.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationwor...-iraq-headlines