All-Decade Teams

[Darkslide820]

I'm pretty sure the 4-3 count was finalized in 1889.

To be honest, I never heard of Herman Long before that post. I just did the filter on MLB.com and sorted by various categories. When I noticed he was up top for most of them, I looked up in Total Baseball 'cause their stats are more accurate and they have Fielding Runs.

I tried looking at the standings, but as you know all the teams played different amounts of games. I found a wikipedia entry once that had a nice year-by-year list, but now I can't find it.

If you can think of a respectable 25 man roster for 1870s, go right ahead. It's a toughy.

On MLB.com, hover over "Stats" and select "Historical." It should show you a list of current leaders or something like that. You'll notice on the left that there is a selection box that lets you pick a year to see the leaders for. If you hold CTRL, you can select multiple years. You can then also sort by position. This will help when and if I actually start filling in all these rosters. [Edit] Huge mistake on MLB.com's part that I just realized. When looking at stats for 2000s Cs, I noticed that players are listed INDIVIDUALLY for each team they played for. I-Rod should have the most hits in this search, but since his stats are broken up into TEX, DET, and FLA he is shown in several places. This will screw up any informal look at who had the most ___ in a given time period.

And if not, it'll at least be a fun exercise.

That's what this whole thing is: a fun exercise. Until I start making all these decade-specific CAPs in MVP. Then it will be insanity.

[Darkslide820]

OK folks. I decided to go ahead and finish off one of the teams. Tell me what you think:

2000s

C Ivan Rodriguez

C Jorge Posada

1B Albert Pujols

1B Todd Helton

2B Alfonso Soriano

2B Jeff Kent

3B Alex Rodriguez

SS Derek Jeter

SS Miguel Tejada

LF Barry Bonds

LF Manny Ramirez

CF Andruw Jones

RF Ichiro Suzuki

RF Vladimir Guerrero

SP Curt Schilling

SP Johan Santana

SP Randy Johnson

SP Roy Halladay

SP Roger Clemens

MP Pedro Martinez

RP Eric Gagne

RP Joe Nathan

RP Francisco Rodriguez

RP Trevor Hoffman

RP Mariano Rivera

I originally had Barry Zito in as a starter, but I took him out to make room for more infielders. I figured that Roger Clemens had some great years in the decade, especially 2005 (goes to show why W-L is not the best indicator), and I felt that Pedro's 2000 alone could have merited him entry. His last few years with the Sawx were dominant.

Using my aforementioned MLB.com filter for multiple years, Todd Helton had BOTH the highest batting average for 2000-2006 1B and the most HR (keep in mind that Pujols played OF).

I put Schilling as the starter because of his role on 2 World Series teams.

[Snailman]

As promised:

1880's

c - Buck Ewing

c - Charlie Bennett

1b - Cap Anson

1b - Roger Connor

1b - Dan Brouthers

1b - Dave Orr

2b - Fred Dunlap

2b - Hardy Richardson

ss - Jack Glasscock

ss/sp - John Montgomery "Monte" Ward

3b - Arlie Latham

3b - Ned Williamson

of - George Gore

of - Pete Browning

of - Tip O'Neil

of/c - Mike "King" Kelly

of/util - Jim O'Rourke

sp - Tim Keefe

sp - Charlie "Old Hoss" Radbourn

sp - Mickey Welch

sp - John Clarkson

sp - Tony Mullane

sp - Pud Galvin

sp - Larry Corcoran

sp - Jim McCormick

3b is pretty weak. Still too many first basemen.

some of the starting pitchers would be made into relievers. I'll have the 1870's up later.

[Snailman]

1870's - very weak. I might have missed some people, and the positions might not be totally correct, but it's a start.

c - Deacon White

c - Pop Snyder

1b/c/of/util - Cal McVey

1b/3b - Cap Anson

1b - Joe Start

2b - Ross Barnes

ss - George Wright

ss - John Peters

3b - Levi Meyerle

3b - Ezra Sutton

of - Jim O'Rourke

of - Paul Hines

of - Orator Schaffer

of - Andy Leonard

of - Abner Darymple

of - Harry Wright

sp - Albert Spalding

sp - Tommy Bond

sp - Bobby Mathews

sp - Jim Devlin

sp - Candy Cummings

sp - Cherokee Fisher

sp - Dick McBride

sp - Asa Brainard

sp - George Zettlein

[Darkslide820]

Yeah, that's what I figured for the 1870s - kinda weak. I only know 3 of those pitchers. What's McBride's first name?

I think that aside from the OF, the 1880s team is the best of the 3 teams.

[Darkslide820]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_season

I knew I saw a wikipedia once that listed the games played in each season.

[Snailman]

Yeah, that's what I figured for the 1870s - kinda weak. I only know 3 of those pitchers. What's McBride's first name?

I think that aside from the OF, the 1880s team is the best of the 3 teams.

The 1870's team isn't really awesome, but it's not bad. The pitchers are actually pretty good. The starting five are some of the best. It's Richard McBride, but the language censor didn't like his nickname...

The 1890's team I feel is actually much better than the 1880's. The infield of the 1880's team is not very good offensively save first base, and Fred Dunlap. The outfield is also unbelievable in the 1890's.

Anyway, I think these teams can hold their own against other all decade teams. And I hope if people play with them then they will learn something.

[Bobolini]

1876 George Bradley for StL was 45-19, 16 shutouts with a 1.23 ERA. Also won 33 games in 75. Dick McBride is who you are referring to.

[Bobolini]

Dick that is

[Bobolini]

I guess you can't use that word, so here goes...His name is D.I.C.K McBride

[Darkslide820]

As far as 1880s vs 1890s goes, I think that if you made CAPs for the players based on their seasons and ages, wouldn't a lot of those guys in multiple teams (Anson, Ewing, Brouthers, Connor) have better ratings in their 1880s incarnations? The 1890s OF is nasty, though. It's like they had a sale on .340 batting averages, and everyone got one.

Oh yeah, and didn't Ned Williamson hold the single season HR title for a while?

Bobolini, what do you think of my 2000s team?

[Darkslide820]

OK, I took another look at your 1890s team. I would cut Van Haltren and Tiernan 'cause you already have 6 Hall of Famers in the OF, so that's enough.

I'd cut Jimmy Collins because he falls well short of my 5-years-of-games criteria for the decade.

I'd put Herman Long in place of Denny Lyons. Sorry, but that .880 F% is too glaring to me.

[Bobolini]

As far as 1880s vs 1890s goes, I think that if you made CAPs for the players based on their seasons and ages, wouldn't a lot of those guys in multiple teams (Anson, Ewing, Brouthers, Connor) have better ratings in their 1880s incarnations? The 1890s OF is nasty, though. It's like they had a sale on .340 batting averages, and everyone got one.

Oh yeah, and didn't Ned Williamson hold the single season HR title for a while?

Bobolini, what do you think of my 2000s team?

Darkslide820, looks pretty good for the 2000 team. A couple things you could comsider is Sammy Sosa over Andruw Jones. Sosa was still dominate in the early part of 2000's. 2000 he hit 50-138-.320 and 2001 he hit 64-160-.328

Piazza could also be considered as a catcher. 200-2002 he went 38-113-.324, 36-94-.300 and 33-98-.280. He's more of a 90's guy though as his skills have diminished, along with Sosa.

Lance Berkman can also be considered, he averaged 37-123-.306 for 2000-6

Pitching? JOhn Smoltz is someone to consider since he did pitch as a relieve and SP. Got 55,45,44 saves not to mention in 1.12 ERA in 2003.

Isinringhausen has been consistent but not as dominant as Francisco.

Your team is pretty solid

[wolfy6finger]

Great topic

And, off the top of my head.

Here's my 2000's:

Starters

C Ivan Rodriguez

(tops defense at position)

1B Albert Pujols

(no one has put up the numbers that he has in his first 5 years)

2B Jeff Kent

(gets nod over Soriano, because Soriano's poor D/strikeouts)

SS Alex Rodriguez

(best SS, before moving over to 3B)

3B Scott Rolen

(a little injuy prone, but he has been stellar on both sides of the ball)

LF Manny Rameriz

(I don't understand why people haven't been selecting him, he has been the most consistent, dominant power hitter of this generation)

CF Andruw Jones

(solid offensively, great defensively, edges Edmonds)

RF Ichiro

(best Japan import -- ever)

DH Daivd Ortiz

(best power hitter/clutch hitter the last 3 years)

Backups

C Jorge Posada

(only because his Defense is subpar in comparison to I-Rod)

1B Carlos Delgado

(he's put up 9 straight season of 30 homers, 100 RBIs (8 out of 9, missed by 1 RBI in '04)

MI Derek Jeter

(Captain Jeter deserves his spot, he's clutch, makes the spectacular play)

OF Vlad Guerrero

Rotation

Johan Sanatana

(most dominate SP the last 3-4 years)

Randy Johnson

(despite lackluster 2 years in NY, he was great with the D-backs)

Curt Schilling

(Team w/ RJ in 'Zona, then beat my Cards in the Series in '04 w/ Sox)

Barry Zito

(although a little eratic at times, he has been solid year-in, year-out)

Roger Clemens

(just the fact that he's pitched brilliantly the last 3 years despite being in his 40's)

Bullpen:

LR Chris Carpenter

(he has been the best NL SP the last 3-years, could of won 3 Cy Youngs, if he didn't miss September starts 2-years ago)

MR Pedro Martinez

(most dominate pitcher late 90's-early 00's)

MR Roy Oswalt

(most consistent pitcher in NL, probably majors, the past decade)

SU Eric Gagne

(dominate for a 3-year stretch)

SU Trevor Hoffman

(alltime saves leader)

CP Mariano Rivera

(who wouldn't want him as the CP)

Honrable mention

2B Alfonso Soriano

(his Defense/lack of patience and strikesout too much for my taste)

LR Mark Mulder

(everyone forgets, but he has the most wins (I think tied) in 2000's, plus respectable ERA, throw out his rookie season and injury prone season, and his ERA is roughly 3.65 and he's 88-40 in that 5-year stretch)

SP Carlos Zambrano

(he's only done it a couple years, a couple more years like the last 2 and he be on there)

There are others I would put on this list.

I omitted McGwire, Sosa and Barroid for the obvious reasons--I believe they all cheated.

[wolfy6finger]

OK folks. I decided to go ahead and finish off one of the teams. Tell me what you think:

2000s

C Ivan Rodriguez

C Jorge Posada

1B Albert Pujols

1B Todd Helton

2B Alfonso Soriano

2B Jeff Kent

3B Alex Rodriguez

SS Derek Jeter

SS Miguel Tejada

LF Barry Bonds

LF Manny Ramirez

CF Andruw Jones

RF Ichiro Suzuki

RF Vladimir Guerrero

SP Curt Schilling

SP Johan Santana

SP Randy Johnson

SP Roy Halladay

SP Roger Clemens

MP Pedro Martinez

RP Eric Gagne

RP Joe Nathan

RP Francisco Rodriguez

RP Trevor Hoffman

RP Mariano Rivera

I originally had Barry Zito in as a starter, but I took him out to make room for more infielders. I figured that Roger Clemens had some great years in the decade, especially 2005 (goes to show why W-L is not the best indicator), and I felt that Pedro's 2000 alone could have merited him entry. His last few years with the Sawx were dominant.

Using my aforementioned MLB.com filter for multiple years, Todd Helton had BOTH the highest batting average for 2000-2006 1B and the most HR (keep in mind that Pujols played OF).

I put Schilling as the starter because of his role on 2 World Series teams.

I didn't see this post, I like with a few exceptions (see my 2000's above)

As dominate as Nathan has been the last 2 years, he's only did 2 years, that not even 30% of the decade).

I completely forget about Helton, but look at Delgado's #. I think he should get the edge based on Helton's is a little inflated from Coors Field and he hasn't been that good the 2-years.

I completety forgot about Tejada. Like I said it was of the top of my head.

I think Carpenter/Oswalt deserve a spot somewhere, both have been the best SPs in the NL the last 3 years.

Although Halladay is a good pick, I think Oswalt has defintely been better tham him over the entire decade.

I don't like Soriano, I think he's overrated, his defense at 2B is suspect (although he was good in LF last year), he has no patience and strikes out too much. Remove him, keep Kent at 2B, Tejada at SS, move A-Rod to 3B. And, Jeter would be you backup 2B/SS with Rolen backing up A-Rod.

Like the OF, except I can't stand "Barroid" Bonds.

Also, if this is an AL team, maybe consider David Ortiz. Who has been more clutch than him the last 3-years? No one.

[wolfy6finger]

Maybe, like MLB does with All-Stars, is put up to vote for the last 2 spots (a pitcher and a hitter). Whoever, gets the mosts votes take the spots.

It seems like their are a core group of MLB players that are obvious, but the last couple of spots could be anyone.

Helton, Delgado, Ortiz, Soriano for the hitter

Carpenter, Halladay, Oswalt, Nathan for the pitcher. Oh, Smoltz would be another one.

[Darkslide820]

As I said before, I put Helton on because he had the highest batting average and most HR for 1B in 2000-2006. Again, keep in mind that Pujols played OF before, but the guy had, like a .339 average. That's insane. Helton's off years have been 320 and 305, or something like that.

I'd be willing to part ways with Nathan; I just put him on because he's been good lately and someone in a previous post put him on. I'd be willing to put John Smoltz in his stead.

I know first hand about Soriano's plate discipline as a Yankee fan watching the 2003 playoffs. However, his power, especially the display last year in a big park, as well as his base stealing makes him too hard to ignore.

I can't stand Barroids either, but I think leaving him off the 2000s team would be ignorant, considering that the NL in 2000-2004 basically revolved around fear of him. He's also accomplished a lot (although tainted) and has basically been the center of the baseball world since 2001. I'm not defending him. I just feel that he's been one of the faces, one of the most integral parts of this decade.

Although I like the DH rule in real baseball, I'm generally against it for All-Time teams.

[Snailman]

adjusted 1890's

c - Jack Clements

c - Buck Ewing

1b - Dan Brouthers

1b - Roger Connor

1b - Jake Beckley

1b - Cap Anson

2b - Cupid Childs

2b - Bid McPhee

3b - John McGraw

3b - Denny Lyons

ss - Bill Dahlen

ss - George Davis

of - Hugh Duffy

of - Billy Hamilton

of - Ed Delahanty

of - Sam Thompson

of - Jesse Burkett

of - Joe Kelley

sp - Kid Nichols

sp - Amos Rusie

sp - Cy Young

sp - Clark Griffith

sp - Gus Weyhing

sp - Jouett Meekin

sp - Nig Cuppy

I still like Lyons over Long. Long isn't better than either Davis or Dahlen, and would therefore be the third string short stop, while only John McGraw would play third (no backup). If you look at the fielding closely, Lyons' fielding percentage is actually 11 points above the league average, and his range factor is 1 point above the league average. Third base was just really hard to play with the gloves of the era. Additionally, Lyons is an important footnote as his 1887 52 game hit streak was the longest until Dimaggio, and second longest until the mlb ruled in 1968 that walks shouldn't be counted as hits (as they were for this season - games #22 and #44 in Lyons' streak were only walks).

[Snailman]

1900's

c - Roger Bresnahan

c - Johnny Kling

1b/c - Frank Chance

1b - Harry Davis

2b - Nap Lajoie

2b - Johnny Evers

ss - Honus Wagner

*ss - Bill Dahlen or Joe Tinker

3b - Jimmy Collins

of - Sam Crawford

of - Willie Keeler

of - Elmer Flick

of - Mike Donlin

of - Fred Clarke

sp - Cy Young

sp - Christy Mathewson

sp - Mordicai Brown

sp - Addie Joss

sp - Vic Willis

sp - Ed Walsh

sp - Rube Waddell

sp -

sp -

sp -

other pitchers...

Jack Chesbro

Eddie Plank

Chief Bender

Doc White

Joe McGinnity

Ed Reulbach

Orval Overall

Jack Pfiester

Red Ames

Deacon Phillippe

Bill Donovan

Bill Dinneen

Jesse Tannehill

Al Orth

Frank Smith

I need some help picking out the last few pitchers, and I very well might have missed a few important fielders.

[Darkslide820]

OK, good. Moving on up. More and more teams.

I was about to suggest Cobb, but he falls well short of my 5 years worth of games criteria (595 to 770). Pretty ironic, though, since he was already one of the best by 1909.

I'd say fill in the pitchers with the first 3 you have there - Chesbro, Plank, and Bender.

Nap, Bresnahan, and Honus are the obvious ones there.

I thought I noticed some of your 1890s guys' game totals made them eligible for the 1900s, but I can't remember who it was now.

Oh yeah, one other thing that occurred to me. Wee Willie Keeler for the 1890s. I know, I know, the OF's already a beast, but for the decade Keeler batted .384, had 2 batting titles, and had 6 200+ hit seasons. To make room you could probably take out one of those last 2 pitchers.

[Darkslide820]

About the 1890s thing, I've compiled some more numbers. Tell me what you think. These stats are for the years 1890 - 1899, except for Fielding Runs, which are lifetime stats.

John McGraw - 848 G, 1063 H, 94 2B, 55 3B, 10 HR, 369 SB, .336 AVG, .410 SLG, -32 FR

George Davis - 1264 G, 1587 H, 265 2B, 120 3B, 56 HR, 398 SB, .313 AVG, .446 SLG, 103 FR

Bill Dahlen - 1107 G, 1288 H, 225 2B, 113 3B, 61 HR, 314 SB, .297 AVG, .444 SLG, 219 FR

Now here are the guys on the bubble:

Denny Lyons - 706 G, 793 H, 139 2B, 45 3B, 41 HR, 95 SB, .303 AVG, .437 SLG, -23 FR

Herman Long - 1263 G, 1561 H, 251 2B, 81 3B, 71 HR, 363 SB, .293 AVG, .410 SLG, 182 FR

Fielding Runs is a stat that compares the player to the average at his position for the season, so Denny Lyons compared to the average 3B in his time was below average. It takes about 10 runs to create an extra win above average, so by this measure, Long's defense alone helped create 8 more wins than Davis' did.

I'd still take Long on the team considering the high HR and FR total. He also had one of the highest H totals of the decade.

[Darkslide820]

OK, folks. I got back into my All-Decades Teams project when I finished school. Since we last met, I've made my All-Time AL and All-2000's team. I've been researching some on the 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s teams, but the one I'm most looking forward to finishing next is the 1990s. At first it seemed like it would be no problem, but I soon realized that the 25-man roster really makes this team one of the toughest to compile. Here's what I got for now:

C Ivan Rodriguez

C Mike Piazza

1B Mark McGwire

1B Frank Thomas

2B Roberto Alomar

3B Matt Williams

3B Robin Ventura

SS Cal Ripken, Jr.

SS Barry Larkin

LF Barry Bonds

LF Albert Belle

CF Ken Griffey, Jr.

RF Tony Gwynn

RF Larry Walker

RF Juan Gonzalez

DH Edgar Martinez

SP Greg Maddux

SP Randy Johnson

SP Roger Clemens

SP Tom Glavine

SP Pedro Martinez

RP Dennis Eckersley

RP Mariano Rivera

RP John Franco

RP John Wetteland

Here's my problems:

1) Big Mac/Hurt were the first 1B that came to mind, but if you look at the total stats, awards, and annual league leaders, Galarraga, Bagwell, and Palmeiro also have strong cases.

2) Edgar Martinez has to go on the team, but having him on the team basically gives you three 3B. Maybe I should drop Matt Williams and have Edgar as the "backup 3B."

3) I left off A-Rod because he falls well short of my half-decade (810 games in this case) cutoff for eligibility for an All-Decade Team.

4) I think the 5-man rotation is good, but I feel like Smoltz should be there. How's the bullpen?

Let me know your thoughts on these.

[kelverin]

Rivera is 100 times better than Hoffman.

Hmm no he is not. Better in the post season, of course surrounded by better talent and more chances as well. I would take Rivera over Hoffman but it is much closer then you indicate.

[el_jefe061]

I don't like Soriano, I think he's overrated, his defense at 2B is suspect (although he was good in LF last year), he has no patience and strikes out too much. Remove him, keep Kent at 2B, Tejada at SS, move A-Rod to 3B. And, Jeter would be you backup 2B/SS with Rolen backing up A-Rod.

Just because Derek Jeter's defense is overrated (Let's not get into this) and he should be a second baseman does not mean he should qualify as a second baseman on here. I've spent more time at New York Yankees second base than he has.

RP Mariano Rivera

You gotta be kidding me. First of all, you can't put A-Rod on there for not playing in the 90's long enough (Four years of dominant hitting, consider that) and have Rivera. He wasn't a dominant closer till 1997. 1997. Yeah he's the best postseason closer of all time, but three years does not merit him over Trevor Hoffman. Hoffman started racking up saves in 1994.

Besides the fact that Hoffman has put up better stats than Mariano (Although I consider them equals) the pure fact that Hoffman actually played a significant portion during the 90's while Rivera didn't play much at all should make Hoffman the obvious choice. This should be no contest.

As for the rest of the selections? Right on the money.

[Darkslide820]

You gotta be kidding me. First of all, you can't put A-Rod on there for not playing in the 90's long enough (Four years of dominant hitting, consider that) and have Rivera.

I also leave Ty Cobb off my 1900s team and Joe DiMaggio off my 1930s team because of my cutoff, as much as it goes against my gut, BTW.

Only thing I can really say about that is that I have different requisites for position players and pitchers, let alone relief pitchers. Basically, since SP's pitched such few innings in the decade, as indicated by the annual leaders in IP, the 1990's decade team cutoff for RP's is very small, and Mariano happens to pass this (376 2/3 vs. 312). Whereas I change the requisite playing time for pitchers based on each decade, I keep the required playing time for players consistent because they have been reasonably expected since the beginning of baseball time to play almost all the time.

I'll look again at the 1990s stats for Hoffman and Rivera. That's why I ask for people's opinions.

Should I change my cutoff of games for position players? I have it as 5 years' worth of games in a decade. Should I lower it? Raise it? Some other way to determine?

I have a cutoff in the first place to see if someone put in enough playing time to be considered a significant enough part of the decade in question.