Dizzy Dean

[Padres67]

Was just looking at Dean's stats. 150-83, 3.02 . He had a short career because of injuries-why is he in the Hall? I don't believe his numbers warrant a selection.

[RaptorQuiz]

Well, he was probably one of the best pitchers in baseball from age 23 to 27. But the toe injury really did kill his career.

But his ability to then have a broadcasting career, and his impressive one-game-comeback in 1947 made him a very interesting story as well.

All of this helped him into the hall.

Don't forget:

Dean had 4 consecutive strikeout titles, he led the National League in complete games for 4 consecutive years, he won 2 games in the 1934 World Series, he was a 3 time 20-game winner, and he won 30 games in 1934. He was league MVP in 1934.

He was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1953, and also he was inducted into the St. Louis Walk of Fame.

[Darkslide820]

You emphasize his 30 games in 1934, but that was still common at the time. You should make note of his 3.02 ERA; considering he pitched in the 1930's that's pretty impressive.

He did have 4 K titles, and he also threw the most innings and complete games 3 times.

He was one of the most highly regarded and colorful pitchers of the 1930's.

[Edit] I just checked his adjusted ERA in Baseball Encyclopedia, and over his career it is 130. For the unacquainted, this basically means that his ERA was 30% better than average.

[TwentySeven]

You emphasize his 30 games in 1934, but that was still common at the time. You should make note of his 3.02 ERA; considering he pitched in the 1930's that's pretty impressive.

He did have 4 K titles, and he also threw the most innings and complete games 3 times.

He was one of the most highly regarded and colorful pitchers of the 1930's.

[Edit] I just checked his adjusted ERA in Baseball Encyclopedia, and over his career it is 130. For the unacquainted, this basically means that his ERA was 30% better than average.

Knowing that info:

Pedro Martinez career ERA+: 160

Pedro Martinez single season ERA+ high: 285

Does that give you an idea of just how dominating Pedro was in his prime?

Anyways, sorry for hijacking the thread.

[Padres67]

Good points-Sometimes it appears pitching is judged differently if a player has a short career due to injury. Everyday players who have shortened careers due to injuries but put up big numbers in those years dont seem to make it.

[Darkslide820]

Does that give you an idea of just how dominating Pedro was in his prime?

Yes? I don't know; what's your point?

[Padres67]

Just that-Someone who plays 162 games a year and has an 8-10 year career with very good numbers in those years but has to retire because of a bad back or something doesn't make the hall where a pitcher would-like Koufax and Dean. Not that I'm an Albert Belle fan but 12 year career cut short by an injury yet had 381 homers .295 average. Nine years in a row of over 100 RBI's, 389 doubles-doesn't seem fair

[TwentySeven]

Yes? I don't know; what's your point?

I'm just in awe of Pedro, thats all.

And if you were wondering

185% better then an average pitcher.

Assuming I did my math right of course.

[Darkslide820]

Considering I already interpreted what ERA+ was in this thread, yes, I understand that 285 would be 185% better than average. Thank you.

I didn't know what your tone was before. I didn't know if you were in awe of Pedro or if you were challenging the relevance of ERA+. (Read your sentence that I quoted a different way and you'll know what I mean.)

Just that-Someone who plays 162 games a year and has an 8-10 year career with very good numbers in those years but has to retire because of a bad back or something doesn't make the hall where a pitcher would-like Koufax and Dean

Is that addressed to me? What are you talking about? Besides, 8-10 is indicative of when a pitcher's offense scores runs, not necessarily the result of pitcher's performance.

And yes, Albert Belle was nasty. He had 29.3 TPW over 1593 games; that's just under 3 TPW for a 162 game season, which is a pretty good average.

[paulw]

Darkslide, TwentySeven - I like your numbers. Pedro between 1997 and 2002 IMHO put up the best numbers of any pitcher ever considering the offensive context of the era. Not only some incredible WHIPs (walks + hits per innings pitched) but absolutely mind boggling walk-strikeout ratios and strikeouts per 9 innings.

BTW - Dizzy should be in the hall. It's the qualitative part of assessment. You can't *just* look at the numbers.

[stecropper]

Even tho I am a pure Classics baseball enthusiast I have often mentioned to my 3 sons that Pedro Martinez is perhaps the best pitcher I have ever seen ----- and that includes the likes of fellas like Koufax, Spahn, Gibson, Marichal, Ford, Palmer etc etc ......... He demonstrats it all: Movement, Location, Change of Speeds, Endurance and Intelligence ! Truly an amazing Pitcher in my Opinion ........