Aaron vs Koufax vs bonds

[Padres67]

Hank Aaron is a class act. He endured death threats when he got close to Ruth simply because he was black. He was a steady performer year end and year out-he had 7 homers and a .372 average against the best pitcher of the 60's Sandy Koufax. He will not be at the game when Bonds breaks the record. He knows Bonds cheated-Bonds couldn't carry Aaron's water. I'm glad he is dissing Bonds-the jerk

[Sean O]

Bonds is still a better player, by a longshot, imho. It doesn't matter what you inject into your ***, if you can hit .328 .515 .863 in a season you're ridiculously good. He also had 9 straight 10+ warp seasons in a row before his supposed starting date for steroids, more than Dimaggio, Mantle, Hornsby, Lajoie, and so on.

The biggest point is, he doesn't swing outside the strike zone. That is unbelievable. His eye is so fine-tuned that he only swings at balls in his wheelhouse, which is why he can drive everything. At worst, he's a top 5 hitter of all time, which I'm not sure I can say about Aaron.

[Padres67]

He is a great player-injections make warning track blasts into homers. You dont hit 73 homers at that age unless you are getting help. He could have been a sure hall of famer without the help, now he may not get in because of what he did. Bonds didnt play with the racism that Aaron faced and he was thankful for the opportunity that was given him by Robinson. He was also an outstanding right fielder-you cant say that about Bonds. Also Bonds could care less abut the early black ball players that made his run even possible-he cares only about Bonds. His godfather Mays lost some prime years in the service and could have been the all time leader instead. In my mind Mays is the greatest player of all time.

[Sean O]

He is a great player-injections make warning track blasts into homers. You dont hit 73 homers at that age unless you are getting help.

But, that's the thing, we don't have any direct proof of this. Steroids are not the only, or even the predominant reason. All possible factors:

1). Expansion. 2 expansions in 5 years had completely destroyed the pitching talent in the majors.

2). Hitting in the NL West. The league now had much smaller ballparks, including his home, which was built specifically to maximize his home run power.

3). Having proper support behind him. He was wedged between two players who routinely had 8-9+ warp.

4). Wisdom. He simply figured out how not to swing out of the zone.

He could have been a sure hall of famer without the help, now he may not get in because of what he did. Bonds didnt play with the racism that Aaron faced and he was thankful for the opportunity that was given him by Robinson.

Right, Bonds is a jerk, but is he that much worse than Ty Cobb? Is he that much more of a cheater than Gaylord Perry?

He was also an outstanding right fielder-you cant say that about Bonds.

Take Davenports with a grain of salt, but Bonds has a career Rate2 of 106, while Aaron has a 104.

Also Bonds could care less abut the early black ball players that made his run even possible-he cares only about Bonds. His godfather Mays lost some prime years in the service and could have been the all time leader instead. In my mind Mays is the greatest player of all time.

Mays is right up there with the best of all time, and anyone would be insane to say he wasn't. And Candlestick certainly robbed a bunch of home runs from him, even given the many, many freebies he got from playing 6 years at the Polo Grounds (one of the main reasons Ruth has 715, btw). But Bonds and Mays are neck and neck in my mind even before the steroids, and his post-2000 time is just unimaginable.

Good chat del.

[Padres67]

As a follow up to what I said earlier about warning track blasts. I played ball on a college scholarship and was told that I would be able to have quicker bat speed and hit the ball further if I pumped iron. It worked. I put more muscle on my frame and was quicker with the bat. I was hitting the ball with more authority. If I would have had the benefit of steroids I would have become a homer hitter instead of a warning track power and singles hitter. Aaron and the guys in the 50's and 60's didnt even use weights -that became more of a thing that happened in the 70's with the invention of the Universal weight machine. My school was one of the first to get one. So we are comparing apples and Oranges, pre weight lifting and steroids to playing on the physical attributes God gave you with doing push ups and sit-ups during spring training as the only real muscle building work.

[medric822]

You cant say he recieved death threats because he was black Maris recieved them too, he was as white as they came. Crazy people always send these whenever people get close. I'm sure McGwire recieved several of these too.

[Sean O]

But Del, pitchers were also either using steroids or weight lifting during this time. This was not a one-sided increase, it was a mutual increase in strength and power. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but while it is certainly easier to power a 100mph fastball, it's also a lot harder to make steady contact with. So, that's a good reason why BA has steadily declined while power has increased.

We'll never know what effect any of this had, but the only way I've ever thought comparing players across generations is by their standard deviation from the average player. And in 2001, to borrow a line from Pete Rose about Brooks Robinson, "he belongs in a higher league." Even at McGwire's peak, he maxed out at .299.470/.752. The OPS difference between Bonds' 2001 and Mcgwire's '98 is .122, or the difference between Vlad Guerrero and Tadahito Iguchi last year. That's sick.

[krawhitham]

Bonds is still a better player, by a longshot, imho. It doesn't matter what you inject into your ****, if you can hit .328 .515 .863 in a season you're ridiculously good. He also had 9 straight 10+ warp seasons in a row before his supposed starting date for steroids, more than Dimaggio, Mantle, Hornsby, Lajoie, and so on.

He started in 1998 Before 1998 he only had

.286 Average

374 Hrs

[Sean O]

He started in 1998 Before 1998 he only had

.286 Average

374 Hrs

Yes, but also 4 .600+ slugging years, at Candlestick and Three Rivers, neither exactly known as home run parks. When you move to a park built for you, you're gonna do better.

And, '98 was an expansion year, so greatly reduced pitching, especially when one of the teams is in your division, and you also have the last round of expansion in your division as well.

[abhall]

Bonds will eventually be the Home Run King, but there will always be an asterisk by his name regardless. He doesn't deserve and will never earn the respect that Aaron has. I don't care if he hits 800 HR's. The * is already beside his name in the record books.

[Padres67]

You're right this is a good discussion-that's why I love this site, it is fun to debate this stuff. Too bad we we do not live near each other we could continue this over a cup of coffee. You have a lot of good things to say-we are from different eras in our analysis of player ability. It is fun to discuss-hope others will add to it. One other thing about Koufax-players of that era pitched many more innings than today-look at Koufax and his well over 300 innings-my theory is that when kids grew up during that time-they played catch for hours increasing the arm muscles naturally. Todays players did not grow up playing catch for hours on end like we did. We used to play catch and pickle for hours.

[Sean O]

Right, but to the same point about Koufax, his arm completely gave way in the middle of his peak. Now, if he were pitching today, he would've had Tommy John and been back a year later, but unfortunately he didn't have that luxury.

And the one other thing that sets old pitchers apart is that they rarely threw at 100% (or close to it) every pitch. Hitters weren't going to burn them to the level they are now, and they were expected to go all 9, so they had to pace themselves. This is obviously going to put a strain on arms, whether young or old.

If nothing else in increasing statistical analysis has done anything, I hope Will Carroll and Baseball Prospectus' Injury Nexus and arm research will save people in the future. Pitchers in the past were able to throw 300-400-500 innings, but the hitters weren't as good in absolute terms, parks were larger, and frankly those who couldn't handle the workload were quickly weeded out.

I'm willing to bet, dollars to donuts, that if we had the knowledge of pitch mechanics and the injury nexus back in the 30's-70's, there would've been a ton more pitchers who were able to actually be pitchers, rather than early flameouts. I remember reading so many Dodgers pitchers who had too much stress on their arms during the Nexus, and never made it. Imagine how history would've been different.

[medric822]

Bonds will eventually be the Home Run King, but there will always be an asterisk by his name regardless. He doesn't deserve and will never earn the respect that Aaron has. I don't care if he hits 800 HR's. The * is already beside his name in the record books.

There was an * after Maris' homerun record up until 9 years after he died, does that make it fair? No. I say a record is a record.

[Homer]

bonds' numbers started getting better after 98, but that is absolutely no indication that he started taking anything then. for all we know, he could have been taking "stuff" of sorts for years since we have absolutely no proof on the kinds of enhancements these different types of chemicals can have as a ballplayer.

but i agree. you can't deny the numbers are just astronomical. i still hate the guy, but you can't deny what he's done. the whole era will just have to have an asterisk next to it. but we'll see.

good discussion though. i'm amazed and very fond of the fact that this hasn't turned into a flamewar. good work guys.

[Padres67]

Maybe we are maturing-yeah right, I think we realize we will continue to hold to our own opinions and free discussion helps us to enjoy this game even more when we dont try to persuade others to our view. The world doesn't hang in the balance with this-it's just a game. I've enjoyed the comments so far-keep it up.

[abhall]

There was an * after Maris' homerun record up until 9 years after he died, does that make it fair? No. I say a record is a record.

In a sense, I agree. If he hits 756 HR's I'll recognize Bonds as the HR champion. The problem for him is the court of public opinion won't. Like homer said, there will be an asterisk besides his name (and others) who piled up astronomical numbers during the steroid era. Regardless, he's one of the best baseball players of all time. To many though, he will be more remembered for steroid allegations & poor character rather than the HR record.

[Homer]

well he'll never pass saduhiro oh.

[Sean O]

well he'll never pass saduhiro oh.

Yeah, but Bonds in the 60's-70's NPB would've hit 1000. It may not be quite AAA, but it's not that much better. Same as Josh Gibson, he may have been the best hitter of all time, but since he never played against what we know as the best, we'll never know what he could have accomplished.

And that's why I like the "relative to league-average" way of calculating how good a player was.

[Homer]

oh yeah, i agree. my comment was just merely out of spite for bonds. i just don't like the guy. it's the only bitterness i'll post in this thread

i don't much like a-rod either, but dang am i cheering for him or what. never thought i'd say that.

but enough of bonds...koufax. sure wish i could've seen him throw. everyone says he's the best lefty there was. the big unit was the most dominant i've seen. but i'm sure that's very bias. what kinda stats can you pull for these two sean O?

[Sean O]

oh yeah, i agree. my comment was just merely out of spite for bonds. i just don't like the guy. it's the only bitterness i'll post in this thread

i don't much like a-rod either, but dang am i cheering for him or what. never thought i'd say that.

but enough of bonds...koufax. sure wish i could've seen him throw. everyone says he's the best lefty there was. the big unit was the most dominant i've seen. but i'm sure that's very bias. what kinda stats can you pull for these two sean O?

Well, first off, it should be noted that Pedro Martinez is by far the best pitcher of all time. His 1999-2001 peak was leagues better than anyone else.

Unit's career ERA+: 138

Koufax: 131

Pedro: 160

ERA+ is normalized vs. league average. Koufax was good, but he was pitching in an extreme pitcher's league. Pedro, meanwhile, was in the most extreme hitter's league in history, and yet had a 1.74 ERA. Incredible.

And just for kicks, the single best ERA+ year ever was Dennis Eckersley's 1990, with a 606. Papelbon, last year, was a 505.

[Homer]

dang. but yeah, i completely agreed with pedro. stats just simply confirm what he was doing earlier in his career. i was merely talking about the best lefty. where's maddux in all that mix?

[Sean O]

dang. but yeah, i completely agreed with pedro. stats just simply confirm what he was doing earlier in his career. i was merely talking about the best lefty. where's maddux in all that mix?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/...us_career.shtml

Dig in. Bet you didn't expect that guy to top the lefty list, did you?

And so, the Sox amazingly enough have arguably 5 of the 6 best pitchers of all time in Petey, Rocket, Grove, Smokey Joe and Cy Young.

[abhall]

Well, first off, it should be noted that Pedro Martinez is by far the best pitcher of all time.

Don't even go there. It's Walter Johnson.

[medric822]

Well, nomatter hwo is the homerun king, I assume that most of us will say that Ruth was the best of them all. Am I right in saying that? I mean, he just about single handedly saved the game during the Black Sox scandle.

[abhall]

Well, nomatter hwo is the homerun king, I assume that most of us will say that Ruth was the best of them all. Am I right in saying that? I mean, he just about single handedly saved the game during the Black Sox scandle.

Yes. It would be interesting to see how many HR's he would have hit had he not spent the first 5 years of his career as a pitcher. Somewhere in the mid 800's I would imagine......