What fuels the Rocket?

[el_jefe061]

I didn't say that he's immune from any suspicious, i'm saying that he didn't need to take steroids and if he did take steroids he's just a moron.

I'm not saying you're saying he's immune from steroids, I'm just pointing out as whole that it seems like there's no suspicion of him at all.

[Sean O]

Also, Minute Maid Park is an extreme pitcher's park for righties. For lefties, like Pettitte (the deserving 2005 Cy Young winner), it's an extreme hitter's park, but it's pretty nice for a righty.

Just stop blaming everything on steroids, He's good, nuf ced.

[defender17]

I think he meant "Statistics of players from the past" not the "Past statistics of THIS player"...

That's what I meant, I should have clarified with all the uses of the word players'.

Also my main reason for why I think Clemens has used is because of his recovery. He is a power pitcher and he was not using this workout regimen reporters always talk about until he was well into his 30s. It's not like he had been in peak shape his whole life and therefore his conditioning has always been there. He just all of a sudden is a workout fiend and his performance increases when most players his age are on the downside. Look at the Unit, his back is giving out, other players' knees start to go (Bonds)...

The reason I get to mad about it is because a certain 4 lettered network carries on like Clemens is the greatest ever with no ?, and if he is juiced someone like Maddux who has been consistently great his entire career is overshadowed because he has a mid 80s fastball and doesn't overpower people.

[el_jefe061]

Also, Minute Maid Park is an extreme pitcher's park for righties. For lefties, like Pettitte (the deserving 2005 Cy Young winner), it's an extreme hitter's park, but it's pretty nice for a righty.

Just stop blaming everything on steroids, He's good, nuf ced.

He is. He's one of the best pitchers ever. But when your name gets dropped by a guy who distributed HGH to fellow players, and his guilt turned out to be extremely true, then you should at least be under suspicion.

The "He's good, nuf ced" attitude is part of the reason people didn't bother to do anything about steroids until it was too late. I'm not saying we should go McCarthy on every baseball player, but we can't just say "He's good, nuf ced" and call it a day.

Edit: I just saw Roger's pic on ESPN, and it got me wondering: With all of the Yankee hair and facial hair rules, why does Roger get to have the alcoholic step father 5' O Clock shadow? Shouldn't he be a little more clean shaven if he's going to be a Yankee?

[Kccitystar]

With all of the Yankee hair and facial hair rules, why does Roger get to have the alcoholic step father 5' O Clock shadow? Shouldn't he be a little more clean shaven if he's going to be a Yankee?

because of his diva-ish behavior there, Chief

[el_jefe061]

because of his diva-ish behavior there, Chief

My point exactly.

[D-Unit]

Also, Minute Maid Park is an extreme pitcher's park for righties. For lefties, like Pettitte (the deserving 2005 Cy Young winner), it's an extreme hitter's park, but it's pretty nice for a righty.

Just stop blaming everything on steroids, He's good, nuf ced.

I thought everyone knew by now that Sean O is always right about this stuff, just give up.

I'm not even joking, if you go against him he will tear arguments to shreds.

Clemens has always been great, he's extremely talented which is why he's still so good. Now that he's a Yankee, people have to bring up steroids once again.

[el_jefe061]

I thought everyone knew by now that Sean O is always right about this stuff, just give up.

I'm not even joking, if you go against him he will tear arguments to shreds.

Clemens has always been great, he's extremely talented which is why he's still so good. Now that he's a Yankee, people have to bring up steroids once again.

How does that tear anyone's argument to shreds? Pac Bell, AT&T, SBC, whatever, is tailor made for Barry Bonds. Does that make him any less of a roider? How could you "tear apart" a steroids argument, besides playing the "Barry Bonds (Or whoever) has put up great numbers his entire career)" or "He's never tested positive for anything". It seems like the ammunition against a steroids argument is very limited, considering that no one can prove or disprove anything.

Clemens has always been good, aside from his last years of Boston when his workout regimen involved more pizza than pushups. His workout routine during those years would make Curt Schilling blush.

Oh, and don't try and play the "Anti-Yankee" card. Google "Roger Clemens Steroids" or "Roger Clemens HGH" and everything comes up from his Houston days. People bring up steroids again because he's back in baseball. Roger CLEMENS is BACK! OF ALL THE DRAMATIC THINGS! That's why people(If there's actually more than one recent person) are talking about steroids and Roger. The whole "Everyone hates the Yankees, we're victims" crap gets a little old.

The point still is, "nuf ced" doesn't change the fact that Roger Clemens has been linked to HGH use. I don't know if he used them, but he should not be immune from suspicion. "Nuf ced" doesn't get the job done. Couldn't you just imagine Bud sitting in his commissioners office and telling his henchmen "Mark McGwire didn't do steroids, we're not looking into it, nuf ced". Maybe not, but that's not the point.

The point is, if you think Roger Clemens should be immune from suspicion or are completely convinced he never did steroids, you have your head in the sand. Nuf ced.

[D-Unit]

Pujols was also linked to steroids and whatnot last year, I don't hear about that every day and no huge articles are written about it like Clemens has.

[Kccitystar]

I thought it was his age with Pujols, or was it Andruw Jones, I'm not sure.

[el_jefe061]

Pujols was also linked to steroids and whatnot last year, I don't hear about that every day and no huge articles are written about it like Clemens has.

Let's see it, because I don't ever recall Fat Albert being mentioned in anything more than Keith Olberman's Spring Training analysis or some stupid radio guys in Oklahoma. Roger Clemens, on the other hand, was mentioned in a federal affidavit after Grimsley. How is this even close?

[Hory]

Clemens has always been great, he's extremely talented which is why he's still so good. Now that he's a Yankee, people have to bring up steroids once again.

**** off with the victim crap, people like Jason Grimsley suggested this when he & Pettite were with the Astros so it's got nothing to do with the team he's paid by.

[BigPaPa]

Honestly who cares?

1)

We know Barry Bonds did steroids he can do all the dam steroids he wants. People don't hate him because he did steroids people hate him because he handled the allegations of steroid use like an asshole. They use his use of steroids against him but thats not the reason for the dislike. If you read the books game of shadows and Juiced and looked through all this stuff in detail the names of players who in all likelihood used steroids is staggering. There was a time in baseball where steroids and amphetamines (real ones not the ones you get from over-the-counter allergy medicine) were almost normal. Now we are for the most part passed that. People need to get it into their brains that steroids were rampant in baseball and for alot of the time they were widely used they weren't even outlawed by Baseball. Now its all a big nasty mess for ALL OF BASEBALL. People need to stop pointing the finger at one player or another and start putting it behind them and demanding better of all players and especially of the players association and Commissioners office.

2)

Most fans, anylists, sports writers ect. dont fully understand steroids and their effects on the human body. They are the ultimate anti-inflammatory. The biggest affect they have when abused by an athlete is allowing that athlete to feel as fresh and energized on opening day as he does on the last day of a long season. They when abused can allow sore muscles to repair in very short order. Allowing a player to be fresher and more alert for every game and cause that player to not where down as much during a season. When abused in very high doses they can stimulate muscles growth by healing the small tears in muscle created by weight lifting in a shorter time however doses this high cannot be sustained but for a short time. Steroids in the kind of extremely high doses needed to stimulate muscles growth shut down the human immune system making a person vulnerable to infection, they also deteriorate bones, skin and ligaments in high doses. People on high doses of steroids are very injury and disease prone. Therefore athletes who need to be on the field everyday prefer low doses of steroids that can help muscles heal while not having short term side effects.

All this essentially means steroids don't make you hit the ball harder, Steroids don't make you throw the ball harder, steroids only let you do it more often at your best performance level than you normally could if not on them.

[el_jefe061]

**** off with the victim crap, people like Jason Grimsley suggested this when he & Pettite were with the Astros so it's got nothing to do with the team he's paid by.

Thank you. I thought I was the only one who smelled bull ****.

To quote Champ Kind, I think when this is all said and done, you and I should get an apartment together.

[D-Unit]

Thank you. I thought I was the only one who smelled bull ****.

To quote Champ Kind, I think when this is all said and done, you and I should get an apartment together.

You don't understand that he actually hates the Yankees, and you can actually offer decent insight into the team. Hory's a sore loser so he's obliged to hate the Yankees. I have nothing on the Cubs but it's almost like you want me to Hory.

[stEdfuNk]

to think nolan ryan pitched in 4 different decades, wow lol, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s

[el_jefe061]

You don't understand that he actually hates the Yankees, and you can actually offer decent insight into the team. Hory's a sore loser so he's obliged to hate the Yankees. I have nothing on the Cubs but it's almost like you want me to Hory.

That may be true, but does it mean he's wrong? All of the Roger Clemens steroid talk came around when he played for Houston. The Grimsley Report ran its course (It shouldn't, and let's hope it hasn't) during his tenure in Houston. If he came back with the Red Sox, there would be talk again about steroids just because he's back in the game.

As for that Pujols thing, I've yet to find anything even remotely concrete connecting Alberto to roids. That isn't the case with Roger. Once again, he should not be immune from suspicion.

All this essentially means steroids don't make you hit the ball harder, Steroids don't make you throw the ball harder, steroids only let you do it more often at your best performance level than you normally could if not on them.

You missed your own point. Steroids let you recover faster from workouts. Faster recovery let's you build muscle faster, also helping you build better muscle (I have a friend who's on Dianobol (sp?) and he put on 10 pounds in a week). Better, bigger muscles make you stronger, therefore you can hit (or throw harder) farther. The argument that "steroids don't help you" is stupid. You actually have to hit the ball, but you're hitting it further. Say goodbye to warning track ground balls.

As for not pointing the finger at everyone, I agree. However, if you're named by an HGH user in a report (That goes for you too, Pettitte, Tejada, Roberts, Gibbons) you should be under suspicion. Roger Clemens should be under suspicion, based off the fact that Grimsley's usage turned out to be extremely true.

Also, why do you have Phil Hughes in your signature and Big Papi for your avatar? That just doesn't seem right to me.

For the last time:

ROGER CLEMENS WAS NAMED IN AN HGH INVESTIGATION BY AN HGH USER. THIS IS WHY WE SHOULD BE SUSPICIOUS, NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE OF HIS AGE OR PERFORMANCE. HE SHOULD NOT BE IMMUNE FROM SUSPICION.

[BigPaPa]

You missed your own point. Steroids let you recover faster from workouts. Faster recovery let's you build muscle faster, also helping you build better muscle (I have a friend who's on Dianobol (sp?) and he put on 10 pounds in a week). Better, bigger muscles make you stronger, therefore you can hit (or throw harder) farther. The argument that "steroids don't help you" is stupid. You actually have to hit the ball, but you're hitting it further. Say goodbye to warning track ground balls.

As for not pointing the finger at everyone, I agree. However, if you're named by an HGH user in a report (That goes for you too, Pettitte, Tejada, Roberts, Gibbons) you should be under suspicion. Roger Clemens should be under suspicion, based off the fact that Grimsley's usage turned out to be extremely true.

Also, why do you have Phil Hughes in your signature and Big Papi for your avatar? That just doesn't seem right to me.

First i didn't miss my own point i looked up all i could on steroids the Doses needed to allow muscle to grow at a noticeably accelerated rate are too high to maintain for more than 4-5 days without life threatening side effects.

Second Im one of the rare people who like the Red Sox and Yankees.

Being that i grew up in new york when it gets down to the post season im probly rooting for the yanks but i like it when both teams are doing well.

this comes from me being a David Ortiz fan since he was in the minors and being a Indians fan when Manny was a prospect over there

[el_jefe061]

First i didn't miss my own point i looked up all i could on steroids the Doses needed to allow muscle to grow at a noticeably accelerated rate are too high to maintain for more than 4-5 days without life threatening side effects.

I'm not saying you don't know your stuff, but when I mean "You missed your own point" I mean that even though they may be using in lower doses, they're still using to the point where they're rapidly gaining muscle.

[KillerBs]

I'm no expert, but from what I have read being on steroids is a whole lot like going through puberty. Now guys, think back to when you were going through puberty. I remember being able to lift weights just a couple of times a week for 2-3 weeks and my arms would be huge. I remember being able to drop 10 or 15 pounds in a couple of weeks just by working out, no dieting required. Do you remember being able to work hard all day, go to sleep for about 4 hours, get up, and work hard all day again with no real consequences? I also know what it feels like to be 40+, and it would probable take me months to lose 15 pounds, and there's know way I could do half of the stuff I did when I was 14-16. If that isn't an unfair advantage I don't know what is.

[defender17]

Pujols was also linked to steroids and whatnot last year, I don't hear about that every day and no huge articles are written about it like Clemens has.

Actually Pujols' age was in question when he was being drafted. The Devil Rays passed on him because they thought he looked much older than he was reporting for the draft. If he is doing HGH that would have helped caused his over developed features for a young age. Travis Hafner has also been rumored to be on HGH but the reason no one points fingers at them is because there aren't any federal documents with their names on them, unlike Roger Clemens.

Also once again for a pitcher, I am talking about recovery time for Roger's reason he would use it. A man in his 40s who is a power pitcher, whether he still has the same amount of power is not the point. He was never one to try and stay in shape and then all of a sudden in one offseason he is a workout fiend, in great shape and then his numbers get better as he gets older. You can't refute that. How is it that most people in his position at his age are getting worse with age, yet Roger is getting better?

Either A) he is a medical marvel or he is a typical above average pitcher who excelled with his ability to fight through pain by injecting himself with performance enhancers to increase his ability to recover from muscle/joint strain after pitching.

Since Clemens is pitching in the "steroid era" I am going to go with B, but that's my personal opinion.

[stEdfuNk]

this thread is full of the same 2 arguments, and the same 2 answers, and the answers are refuted with the same 2 arguments, that get the same 2 answers.. zzzz...

[el_jefe061]

this thread is full of the same 2 arguments, and the same 2 answers, and the answers are refuted with the same 2 arguments, that get the same 2 answers.. zzzz...

That's because half the people here can't comprehend anything simple.

[D-Unit]

That's because half the people here can't comprehend anything simple.

HUH? :toothless: