lautrec Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I cannot believe I have to make this disclaimer, but for all who need it, here goes: DISCLAIMER: I do NOT condone dog-fighting, nor do I condone the torture, mistreatment or any negative stuff on any animal. Do I believe that animals have rights? Nope, but I do believe that we as humans have responsibilities to treat them humanely. Now, with all this Michael Vick dog fighting stuff going on, I am just amazed at the outpouring of outrage for how these dogs were and are treated. And, it is a just outrage. No human should treat animals in this manner. If convicted, Vick should pay the consequences for inhumane treatment of animals. But WHY is there not the same or stronger moral outrage displayed for the daily slaughter of innocent human beings? I don't understand this. If anyone is interested, here's just a brief description of procedures to destroy an unborn human in and sometimes partially in, the womb. You can write this off as dogmatic Christian rhetoric, but if you will take a few intellectually honest minutes, to just consider what is happening here, maybe you'll see what I'm trying to say. http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/ I am not interested in trying to "convert" anyone - that's not my job. I just want you to consider that a human life, while though it's not yet out of the womb, does not make it expendable. If unborn babies are not "valid life" then would it not stand to reason, to just leave them alone? I don't want to get into a huge moral debate over abortion. You can obviously tell where I stand on this issue, and you'll never change my opinion that this is morally reprehensible beyond belief. And, I realize that there are those who will completely disagree with me, and that's fine. It's your decision to make. But can you honestly, intellectually and logically, compare or even harbor more outrage about dogs being killed and mistreated, to the daily killings of human babies, who have been denied a chance for the life we all enjoy? Before you respond, here's some points you should know: 1-Capital Punishment - I'm against it. 2-Wars - Sure wish they didn't happen, would love to live in complete peace. Sure wish the terrorists didn't want to kill lots of innocent people. 3-I like to eat meat. I think there are methods to humane killing of animals for food consumption. And, even though some of us will disagree, I do hope we are able to discuss this without anger and rhetoric that serves no viable discourse on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defender17 Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 But WHY is there not the same or stronger moral outrage displayed for the daily slaughter of innocent human beings? I don't understand this. I agree with you 100%, but from what I've seen a lot of people don't like to get involved in larger issues. It's not just abortion....People can help the environment by purchasing a smaller car rather than an H2, drive less to save gas, recycle more. You could donate $1 a week to HIV research in Africa or feeding the poor. Everyone bitches about the war and our economy but when it comes to voting or staying involved in politics everyone backs off. I see people who have the Yellow "Support our troops" magnets on their car but no one actively gets involved to understand what is going on over there. I think it's easier to get behind a small movement like this Vick issue, or the Duke trial, or the Barbaro incident, because once that passes it's back to normal. However, larger scale issues like I mentioned required lifestyle changes and the majority of people are just too damn lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJEagles Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I respect your beliefs and your right to freedom of speech, etc...but I can pretty much guarantee that this thread is going to go to the crapper, pretty quickly. To take them time to create a thread where you compare dogfighting to abortions, is just ridiculous. There is public dismay about abortions, but they happen, and they will continue too. I don't totally agree with abortions, but I also don't totally disagree with having them, as long as there is valid reason too. I know the difference between a baby that is 8 months in the womb, to a FETUS that is 8 weeks, 6 weeks, 4 weeks....although it is a living thing, it is not a viable human being. I would rather see a women terminate a pregnancy then bring another unwanted baby into the world. Yes you can say adoption is an option. Sure it is. I agree with anyone who makes that statement. But fact of the matter is, there are millions upon millions of babies who are waiting to be adopted....that will never find a loving home. Do we need another one born, to add to the epidemic? But can you honestly, intellectually and logically, compare or even harbor more outrage about dogs being killed and mistreated, to the daily killings of human babies, who have been denied a chance for the life we all enjoy? Can you honestly, intellectually and logically stick up for the right to bring another unwanted baby into the world, when there are millions of unwanted, unadopted children who will never have the opportunity to live a life that we enjoy? People like PETA will always believe that dogs are on the same scale as humans. That's a fact, that isn't going to go away. Deal with it. It's the same as people who are against abortions. You are not going to stop fighting for these unborn fetuses, just like they won't stop fighting for the rights of animals. To compare the two, is just wrong. To bring an abortion argument into Michael Vick's situation is offensive. Oh, and I do not support late stage abortions. Anything over 12 weeks should be left alone to develop into a baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lautrec Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 I respect your beliefs and your right to freedom of speech, etc...but I can pretty much guarantee that this thread is going to go to the crapper, pretty quickly. To take them time to create a thread where you compare dogfighting to abortions, is just ridiculous. There is public dismay about abortions, but they happen, and they will continue too. I don't totally agree with abortions, but I also don't totally disagree with having them, as long as there is valid reason too. I know the difference between a baby that is 8 months in the womb, to a FETUS that is 8 weeks, 6 weeks, 4 weeks....although it is a living thing, it is not a viable human being. I would rather see a women terminate a pregnancy then bring another unwanted baby into the world. Yes you can say adoption is an option. Sure it is. I agree with anyone who makes that statement. But fact of the matter is, there are millions upon millions of babies who are waiting to be adopted....that will never find a loving home. Do we need another one born, to add to the epidemic? But can you honestly, intellectually and logically, compare or even harbor more outrage about dogs being killed and mistreated, to the daily killings of human babies, who have been denied a chance for the life we all enjoy? Can you honestly, intellectually and logically stick up for the right to bring another unwanted baby into the world, when there are millions of unwanted, unadopted children who will never have the opportunity to live a life that we enjoy? People like PETA will always believe that dogs are on the same scale as humans. That's a fact, that isn't going to go away. Deal with it. It's the same as people who are against abortions. You are not going to stop fighting for these unborn fetuses, just like they won't stop fighting for the rights of animals. To compare the two, is just wrong. To bring an abortion argument into Michael Vick's situation is offensive. Oh, and I do not support late stage abortions. Anything over 12 weeks should be left alone to develop into a baby. Thank you for your well thoug out response. I am encouraged to know that even if someone has opposing views, they can discuss it rationally, and quite effectively. You make good points, and I respect your stance. To answer your question, I do believe that EVERY human that is conceived, under ANY circumstance has a right for that life. There are many examples on both sides, but I just don't feel that I have the equipment to decide which life is going to be one that falls into our perceived guidelines of worthiness. I am very thankful I was not aborted, but I had no choice in the matter. I am not trying to draw a comparison to dog fighting with abortion. I am merely trying to stimulate awareness to the abortions that occur all the time, and it seems as if they are swept under the table, because we do not ever want to deal with the moral aspects of it. The outrage of the dog fighting is simply a tool for me to point out the JUSTIFIABLY CORRECT outrage of dog fighting, and to ask people to consider the ongoing destruction of human babies. If you are outraged at dog fighting, AND partial birth abortions, how can you be offended if this subject is brought up in conncection with Vick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJEagles Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 It's not that I am offended. I just don't understand why an abortion argument/ example must be brought up in a dogfighting debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thespungo Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Could you tell a woman face-to-face that you know what's best for her body? I know I couldn't. And that's why abortion is none of my business... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace152 Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 FACT Puppies are cuter than babies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pistonj92 Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 I think the unjust killing of humans that we need to be paying attention to right now are in Sudan. This genocide needs to be recognized and stopped. Abortion is something that will most likely always happen and it for the most part can't be stopped. But this can be stopped. Unfortunately conversations like this always go out of hand with radicals on each end of the spectrum and most likely this thread will be locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee4Life Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Do I believe that animals have rights? Nope, but I do believe that we as humans have responsibilities to treat them humanely. This is the only issue I have personally with your post. It is fine by me with whatever stance you have against abortion. They are your opinions and that's that. But when you say that you think animals have no rights, that's where I had to stop and disagree. I own dogs and I live on the east coast of the U.S. My dogs have the right to be cool on hot days and warm on cold days. I make sure of it. I don't keep them outside in a rainstorm or out overnight in the middle of January when the temperature gets below zero - with or without the wind chill factor. It's their RIGHT to be comfortable from the weather conditions. It's not my choice to decide if they are. It's their right also to eat daily and have water. Again, I've never gone into a day thinking "maybe I will give them food today." I just do it every day without thinking because it is what you should do. Animals are exactly like people in this way. They have the right to be comfortable and should be given the same rights and privileges you expect for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred13 Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 What if a woman unfit for raising a child was raped and became pregnant? She probably wouldn't even be able to cover the medical expenses that go along with having a baby let alone raising it. Would you tell her, after her life has been ruined, that she must now have to take care of a baby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_jefe061 Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Abortion is a touchy issue. I think certain abortions are wrong, past a certain point, but many people believe we should ban abortion altogether. Some aborted children would be born to bad families, would be children of rape, or would have some other circumstances. If we were to ban abortions, the number of back alley, coat hanger abortions would skyrocket. Getting rid of abortion is not the answer, there must be middle ground. One problem I have with Christian, right wing, whatever you'd prefer to call it, rhetoric about abortion is the opposition to the Morning After pill and contraceptives. The Morning After pill is a great compromise, something many conservative politicians don't want to do, because it basically serves the same purpose as abortion, but it's in the very beginning of the pregnancy. Also, many Conservatives believe in only teaching abstinence in schools. Teaching just abstinence is not the answer, teenagers with all their raging hormones need to be taught about birth control, etc. With abortion, and many other issues, Washington should not strive for an all or nothing solution, both sides included. There must be a middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krawhitham Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I respect your beliefs and your right to freedom of speech, etc...but I can pretty much guarantee that this thread is going to go to the crapper, pretty quickly. I'll do what I can later to make sure it does, too busy right now. Later tonite I'll set this ****** on fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hory Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 A better comparison for Vick would have been with Kobe Bryant's rape trial. I've heard a heck of a lot more concern about those dogs in the past week than the woman Kobe raped. As for your crazy abortion example, that's just nuts, a fetus is not a baby and you have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body. Personally, if I were a pregnant female, I couldn't even contemplate aborting, but that would be my decision to make, not the decision of the state or federal government or anyone else. this abortion issue in the States is dividing the country right in half. You know, and even amongst my friends - we're all highly intelligent - they're totally divided on the issue of abortion. Totally divided. Some of my friends think these pro-life people are just annoying idiots. Other of my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks. How are we gonna have a consensus? I'm torn. I try and take the broad view and think of them as evil, annoying fucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edam Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 lifesite.net/abortiontypes/ That site is sensationalist and depends on shock value to make it's point with the pictures it shows. That's not to say that the things that they say and show are not accurate, but there's a lot to be said about presentation. Some would cringe over a site that showed the procedures of a root canal or a circumcision. Yes, I know, there is a difference. And while I believe that things such as abortion, religion, politics, and pizza toppings are hot button issues, I sometimes get sucked into them anyway... There is also a difference, I think, between humans and "potential" humans. I remember how it was before abortions were legal, and it wasn't pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee4Life Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I'll do what I can later to make sure it does, too busy right now. Later tonite I'll set this **** on fire Good Lord, I can't wait. Hahahahaahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_jefe061 Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Saying people are "ignoring" abortions is wrong. Painting is as an atrocity when it's one of the fiercest debates in America is also wrong. Whether you think that partial birth abortions, or any other abortion, is murder, the rest of the world hasn't decided that. We can't express moral outrage if we think it isn't murder. My point is, you just can't declare "atrocities" if half the country feels differently. I find the debate about abortion from the right wing hypocritical, when many of these people are turning a blind eye to real atrocities. Darfur, hell even the rest of Africa. AIDS. Starvation. Many other issues where human beings, not fetuses, die every day. They're ignored. Find me a right to lifer who cares about those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trues Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 :popcorn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lautrec Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 I will say this: I am very glad that we as Americans have the freedom to discuss these types of subjects. This thread will be closed shortly, and that's also the right of the site administrators. I pray that this short little thread stirred some thought. I love the intelligent conversation that, for the most part, occurs in the "Left Field" forums. I really love the mods, and will contribute with money and some conversation from time to time. I'm sure I will be pigeonholed or stereotyped as a "right-wing, dogmatic, conservative, Christian, zealot, etc., etc.", but that's been predicted and is totally expected. It is hard to be a non-conformist, in a society that values conformity, and I daily take up my cross and pay it. And it is good. Blessings to all. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee4Life Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 You got some for me ? I got a cooler filled with Coke. We can sit back and watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee4Life Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I will say this: I am very glad that we as Americans have the freedom to discuss these types of subjects. This thread will be closed shortly, and that's also the right of the site administrators. No it's not. Nothing wrong with any of you expressing your opinions on things like this. Just as long as no one goes overboard with swearing and there are no personal attacks, it doesn't have to be closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stEdfuNk Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I don't see how the two subjects are even comparible. And a woman has the right to do whatever she wants with her body, I'd rather have a woman who doesn't see herself fit to raise a child have an abortion than have another child shipped into the adoption agency, or have him live a **** life, or even have the mother AND the child live a bad life because she can't afford to keep up with the babys needs. And I think the reason for the outrage on the dogfighting was that we all have dogs for the most part, I know when I hear about what they did to the dogs I can't help but think about what if my dog was in that position and that sucks. Those people (I'm not saying Vick, because for all I know he might not even be guilty) took advantage of a dog that couldn't help itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hull16s Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 :popcorn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee4Life Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 Trues is going to have to make more popcorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxbjr Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I'm not going going to debate the abortion issue here but I am going to point out a few things about the adoption issue. My sister and her husband have adoptioned 2 children in the last 4 years. Where did they adopt these children from,... China. Why did they adopt from China and not from the USA,... time and money. Adopting from China, or most other poorer countries takes 3 - 5 months and $7000-10000 per child. If they adopted a child in the USA it would take 3 - 5 years or more and cost $20000-30000+. And of course the birth mother can come back at any time, demand the child back, demand financial support, or make life hell for the adopting parents in many other ways. Thus the idea that abortions should be banned and women with unwanted children should just adopt them out, really doesn't work the way it was intended too. This is the reason why there are millions of un-adopted, unwanted children in the USA, and people who want to adopt children turn to other countries. Now whether its better to abort these childern or leave them unwanted in an orphanage until they turn 18,... I'll leave that debate up to you all. In my opinion if you want to change the abortion laws in this country, we need to change the adoption laws first. :popcorn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee4Life Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I just figured that people might want some potato chips or pretzels to go with your popcorn for this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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