bone Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2898514 sure. friggin moron. excerpt: Ichiro has never been an elite player, and, given his age and skills set, it's likely he never will be. He's a good player, not a great one. Keep that in mind as he assails Sisler's record. It's entirely possible to be both productive and grossly overrated. That's Ichiro. Dayn Perry is a frequent contributor for FoxSports.com. anybody agree with this frootloop? in the bold bit above, he must be discussing his own volumnuous deadline drivel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickybomag14 Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 That guy has no idea what he is talking about. NO IDEA! How can you say something like that about a player of the calibur as Ichiro. He is like Vlad except less power(hits the ball where ever it is pitched) and no one will test his arm if they are smart. This guy must be a complete idiot to say something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 I agree somewhat.....but Its kinda hard to say hes either a elite player or a decent player....cuz He doesn't have the power some hitters have...but Hes great w/ hits.... But .... I don't really think hes overated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bone Posted September 11, 2004 Author Share Posted September 11, 2004 thanks guys, i thought i was going nutz or something. wierd article. one thing the guy completely avoids in his anti-slugging/anti-power whinefest is the number of runs ichiro scores. granted he has to be driven in by another bat, but he puts pressure on pitchers on the base paths which translates to payoffs for hitters at the plate. i'll grant that VladG is a more valuable player any day of the week, saturdays and sundays too. a-rod, soriano, et al, too. but to crap on this player like this while he's chasing a stupendously time tested record is just... ludicrous. but surely i'm biased. seattle is hyped for ichiro's assault on the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooseknucks Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 this guy has like half a brain to say that Ichiro is not elite player ... if you're feared, you're elite. if he breaks the record that makes him even better, and he's already one hell of a player .. elite? i say yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 this guy has like half a brain to say that Ichiro is not elite player ... if you're feared, you're elite. if he breaks the record that makes him even better, and he's already one hell of a player .. elite? i say yes wait though.....I I'm not sure bout this....but I'm pretty sure they don't pitch around him.... I think Until the Seatle gets better.....Hes a GREAT player .. but not totally Elite yet.... But he will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooseknucks Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 true enough, but he's carrying that team right now, if they didn't have him, they'd be challenging the Mets record for season loses ... that's funny, has a team ever had the most single season wins and season loses? different years though lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephyr Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 I have to agree that for someone with Ichiro's skillset that he needs a higher OB%, but that's merely moot. If you have a .330 average, you're obviously (unless your Bonds), going to earn your OB% through your average. I have never agreed with evaluating a person against the position that he plays. Let's take Soriano, who may eventually be considered elite. If you move him from 2B to RF, and you decide to stop calling him elite because RFs put up better numbers, then that's just talking through your *** (can I say that?). A hitter is valuable if he's a good hitter. Period. You put up 40 HRs, I don't care what position you play. You give me a .330 + avg, I don't care where you play. Now, there's absolutely no reason to complain about Ichiro not giving you power. HE'S A LEADOFF HITTER. What does this guy want? A Brady Anderson freak year? THe Mariners, for the most part, have Boone at 2B (which is not considered a power position), to make up for Ichiro not having power at RF. Does it really matter if your power guy plays RF and your professional hitter plays 2B? Absolutely not, as long as you have them. Ichro's job is to hit the ball and get on base. He does that for the most part, and he does it pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennis_is_theman Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 he is better than matsui Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverineman Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 Friend of mine linked me to this earlier and I was laughing about how dumb this writer is. He has virtually no respect for the game, he probably doesn't even know who George Sisler is. I imagine he's read Moneyball a few times, watched a few Barry Bonds games and thinks he knows what he's talking about. He's incredibly narrow minded. "All RFs must have power. Strong arms are overrated because its not used every other inning. Speed is overrated. OBP is everything. Power is everything. Contact, actually playing the game well is irrelevant." is basically a good summary of what he said. Ichiro is easily one of the top 5 players in the last 15 years, and probably as close as this generation will ever get to seeing someone like Ty Cobb. Well, without the anger he played the game with. But his skillset is similar. Cobb was obviously much better, but then again you can compare any two people and say Cobb was much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDiddy Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 I think speed is underrated. You can get a lot more done if you're fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRaysGoRocco Posted September 11, 2004 Share Posted September 11, 2004 granted he has to be driven in by another bat, but he puts pressure on pitchers on the base paths which translates to payoffs for hitters at the plate. Unless you hit a HR, it takes two to score a run. a guy like Ichiro needs someone to drive him in AND a guy like Vladdy needs someone on base to drive in a run. Ichiro can't score many runs without someone bringing him in and Vladdy can't drive in many runs without someone getting on base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenDammit Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 what the guy said isn't wrong though. It may not be entirely true about Ichiro, but its completely possible to be productive and overrated. It happens all the time where players of any sport get so hyped, and they really don't play anywhere near that hype, but they produce, so no one thinks otherwise about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeljjt Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 The statement by the sportswriter is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. He sounds like one of those idiot basketball announcers who make every slam dunk into a momentous occasion and never once comment on how a player is incapable of making a 15 foot jump shot. Same here. I guess to be elite you need to hit 40 Home Runs (And its probably ok if you strike out 150 times as well)...But 200-240 hits every year just means nothing. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mindwarped Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 By Rob Neyer ESPN Insider 7:47 p.m. ET: This morning somebody asked me if Ichiro is an MVP candidate. "He probably is," I responded. "But he shouldn't be." How can a player who's likely to break George Sisler's record not be an MVP candidate? Basically, because all hits are not created equal. Put another way, do you think Melvin Mora's an MVP candidate? And if not, why not? Though Mora's batting average is 33 points lower than Ichiro's, his on-base percentage is 10 points higher because he's drawn a few more walks. Though Mora's batting average is 33 points lower than Ichiro's, his slugging percentage is 102 points higher because he's hit 11 more doubles and 15 more home runs. Even if you give Ichiro credit for his steals and his glove, I don't see how you get him past Mora. There are half a dozen solid MVP candidates in the American League. But Ichiro's not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 Ichiro will get a few votes but will not win it for one reason.... MVP stands for Most VALUABLE player to their team.... Obviously....Seattle isn't contending .... so He probably won't win it....but if he is with the Yankees.....he would be in the midst of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bone Posted September 13, 2004 Author Share Posted September 13, 2004 update on ichiro's progress .vs the record in my sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwert Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 as far as the lack of powers concerned, im really looking forward to seeing ichiro in the HR derby in the future. From what i heard and read, this guy absolutely puts on a show whenever he takes BP.. like launching balls to RF seats on a consistent basis. This goes to show what an "underrated" hitter he might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverineman Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 While I agree Ichiro should not win MVP(nor should anyone on a losing team, I don't care if its A-Rod, Ernie Banks, anyone), I think he is more valuable to his team than Mora is to his. For one, Ichiro is the best player on his team by far and most valuable person on his team. Mora is probably the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team and at best 2nd most valuable. He has Miguel Tejada on his team who will probably get top 5 in MVP voting anyway. Secondly, they're different players, so they'll have different stats. Ichiro is a leadoff hitter. Its better for him to just try to hit and get on instead of trying to hit homers or for power. Can he hit for power? Absolutely, he has suprisingly good power. He doesn't because thats not what he's supposed to do. Give him a full season and he could probably be a very good #3 or #4 hitter. So Mora will have a higher slugging % because he's trying to hit for power, whereas Ichiro isn't. And while I really like Mora and think he's a very good player, his stats are probably beefed up a bit from batting right infront of Tejada. Oh, and Mora has missed around 30 games or so this year, and to me that takes a lot away from someone's value to their team. A game here and there isn't bad, but when you're missing 30 or more, you're hurting the team. Even if you can't help it, it still reduces your value and should reduce the person's value in the eyes of voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bone Posted September 14, 2004 Author Share Posted September 14, 2004 as far as the lack of powers concerned, im really looking forward to seeing ichiro in the HR derby in the future. From what i heard and read, this guy absolutely puts on a show whenever he takes BP.. like launching balls to RF seats on a consistent basis. This goes to show what an "underrated" hitter he might be. i agree with you here. ichiro can put on a great BP show, pulling homers to right easily. he used to do that a lot more when Sweet Lou was here. Melvin doesn't challenge these guys to do *anything*. as a leadoff hitter, ichiro does exactly what he's supposed to do. what is needed from a leadoff hitter. the guy who wrote that article is a nutter. While I agree Ichiro should not win MVP(nor should anyone on a losing team, I don't care if its A-Rod, Ernie Banks, anyone) agreed. i don't think anyone is saying he should be MVP. god the mariners suck this year. but he's not an overrated player, IMO. he's the whip, the sh*t, and the bomb, and he can contribute bigtime to any team in any league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BravesFantatic Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Some "Baseball Analyst" are just what the name says, Analyst, all they do is try to break things down into stats and blah... If Ichiro was hitting 40 homeruns then they'd hail him as some great player. Everyone isn't supposed to hit for power and a low avg. Ichiro is supposed to get on base and score runs. The bad thing about playing in the outfield is the stigma that comes with it that you have to be able to hit homeruns. Ichiro gets on base and for the past 4 years he's been the best leadoff hitter in the game. On top of that his is outstanding at playing his position. How many sluggers can you say have multiple talents as Ichiro. Not many.... If a team like the Yankees or Cardinals maybe even my Braves had leadoff players hitting like Ichiro imagine how many more runs theyd be scoring. An elite player doesn’t have hit 40 homeruns a season or drive in 100+ RBIs, he has to be the best at his position. And for the past 4 years Ichiro has been the best leadoff player in the game. I can't think of any manager out there when choosing a player to leadoff their lineup and consistently get on base wouldn't choose Ichiro. He’s got an excellent bat, speed, and Glove. How many power hitters have that tandem? Barry Bonds is an exception but in my current day if I had to make up a team Ichiro would definitely be leading off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpup Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Saying that Ichiro is overrated is like saying the Pete Rose was overrated or Tony Gwynn.. :shock: Ichiro is simply amazing. I could watch him hit all day, everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixto Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 holy cow did you guys misunderstand that column. first of all, perry did not call ichiro "average," he specifically stated that he was a "good" player. the bottom line is that ichiro has the 9th highest OPS for a rightfielder in the major leagues today. Even if you aren't a big fan of OPS, consider the names who are "better" than him according to OPS: Berkman Drew Abreu Sheffield Vladimir Guerrero Miguel Cabrera Sosa And Jeromy Burnitz, who despite the Coors bonus has performed well this season. Sorry, but there is no way that you can consider Ichiro to be *significantly* better than even five guys on that list. Before you say "Sure I can" make sure you look at the stats. And not being better than 5 other RFs means Ichiro is not one of THE best players in the majors today. That does NOT mean he's not a good player because he is a very good player. Just not the best and not a candidate for MVP on his sucky, sucky team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 holy cow did you guys misunderstand that column. first of all, perry did not call ichiro "average," he specifically stated that he was a "good" player. the bottom line is that ichiro has the 9th highest OPS for a rightfielder in the major leagues today. Even if you aren't a big fan of OPS, consider the names who are "better" than him according to OPS: Berkman Drew Abreu Sheffield Vladimir Guerrero Miguel Cabrera Sosa And Jeromy Burnitz, who despite the Coors bonus has performed well this season. Sorry, but there is no way that you can consider Ichiro to be *significantly* better than even five guys on that list. Before you say "Sure I can" make sure you look at the stats. And not being better than 5 other RFs means Ichiro is not one of THE best players in the majors today. That does NOT mean he's not a good player because he is a very good player. Just not the best and not a candidate for MVP on his sucky, sucky team. Stats? Give me a break....if you want stats...go join some fantasy baseball league... STATS isn't everything.....its what they mean to their team and franchise.... and Ichiro is a damn good player and a Candidate for MVP but just won't win it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixto Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Stats? Give me a break....if you want stats...go join some fantasy baseball league... STATS isn't everything.....its what they mean to their team and franchise.... and Ichiro is a damn good player and a Candidate for MVP but just won't win it.... Hey, suit yourself. Look at that list of rightfielder names and tell me that Ichiro is better than all of them. Then realize that that is just 1/8 of the position players in the major leagues. I mean, if you're not going to respond to reason, then why even bother reading articles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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