This just in: Bush doesn't believe in the fourth amendment

[Hory]

President Clinton failed to act in any decisive fashion in 1998 to support the first REAL "War on Terror" and allowed terrorist groups like Al Queada to continue to train, plan, and fund actions inside the United States and abroad.

Total ******* spin, you've really been drinking the kool-aid haven't you.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SZzATQEeJYU

I'm not a fool. I am under no illusion that this (Bush) or any other administration is 100% open with the public... but I am also a firm believer that had Gore been in office, and not Bush, when the tragedies of 9/11/2001 occured... we would be living in a far different world... and it would NOT be for the better... as some of us would like you to believe.

Seriously misguided, wrong and deluded, but no you're not a fool.

[RaptorQuiz]

I can respect your opinion, Hory. And that is because that is what this nation is supposed to be about.

We can all disagree with eachother all day long, express our own, differing opinions, and in the end - we all still get together on our baseball website and talk about the game we love.

This is a luxury that an unfortunately large percentage of the world's citizens do NOT enjoy.

You can call whatever I say spin, and put up some YouTube videos to support it... and I'm sure I could do exactly the same if I felt like wasting my time.

But that is what it would be, wouldn't it? A waste of time.

It is nearly impossible to change someone's opinion... and an internet forum may be the MOST ineffetive place to do so. And since I respect you and also value your intelligence, I see no need to seek an "argument" here - when simple "disagreement" is a state we, as adults, should be able to live with.

I want to repeat myself: If I offended anyone in my earlier post(s) - I apologize. Obviously, I get a little heated when this kind of thing comes up. This is partially due to the beliefs instilled by my household upbringing, my military background, and my own personal opinions.

I do NOT disrespect the opinions of others... but I (of course) reserve the right to disagree with them.

[hull16s]

Be careful guys, I'm from Australia..........the 57th state of the U.S. I can hear the thought police comin from here :rambo:

[Hory]

Yes, you are free to believe what you want to believe, Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, Tony La Russa's sobriety, whatever

but when you post something factually wrong, information of the kind that has resulted in thousands of people being killed and maimed FOR NOTHING, I think it is reasonable to call BS on it.

[meteamo]

Raptor ... thank you very much for what you have done and sacrificed.

I've had family members serve and it can be very stressful. I have a relative and a friend currently in Iraq and it isn't easy, especially for their young kids. And I'm sure it's definately not easy for the brave parents who went to Iraq either.

Whether or not we should have been in Iraq in the first place is open to debate but since we are in Iraq, we can't totally back out now as fast as what some people say. Every action has a consequence and you have to think about all the possible consequences and ramifications before doing something in post haste.

For example, if we left Iraq now, Iran may step in. Iran some say is close to a cival war. The Iranian people are good people and what we do may effect what happens in Iran and vice versa.

BTW ... If Austrailia is the 57th U.S. State, what happened to states 51 through 56? :lol:

[Guildster]

My sincere thanks, Raptor, for the sacrifice you made to serve our country.

Too bad you had to serve under such an idiot. Idiots.

Iraq is a frickin disaster that we caused, but now we own it and we have to try and fix it.

As for the 4th Amendment, we have to fight for it... otherwise another chunk of our freedom is lost and the bad guys gain another little victory. Write your congressman.

Congressional Email: www.visi.com/juan/congress

[Rome-o-phobe]

Ur all pissed about the 4th amendment?????? Dudes get a grip. All the FBI not gov, but FBI is doing is Data-mining. Putting a word in their computer, and their computer looks for the word in your computer. They dont read every file you have. Look, if you are innocent, then don't freakin worry!

The FRONT in Iraq was/is needed. It along with the Patriot act have helped to stop terrorist attacks here.

And RaptorQuiz....You are a Great American

[Sean O]

Ur all pissed about the 4th amendment?????? Dudes get a grip. All the FBI not gov, but FBI is doing is Data-mining. Putting a word in their computer, and their computer looks for the word in your computer. They dont read every file you have. Look, if you are innocent, then don't freakin worry!

The FRONT in Iraq was/is needed. It along with the Patriot act have helped to stop terrorist attacks here.

And RaptorQuiz....You are a Great American

Wow, I can't believe anyone actually believes this BS. This "if you're innocent you have nothing to worry about" is the single dumbest thing that's come out since 9/11, as it shows what little respect neocons have for this country, and especially for their fellow man.

Me, since I'm just an ignorant liberal, think that people shouldn't be unlawfully detained without trial or representation for years at a time. You make it sound like we're perfect when it comes to magically only rounding up the terrorist boogeymen, when we have a truly horrendous record.

So, no, if you're innocent you do have plenty to worry about.

[Rome-o-phobe]

WOW, sean-o, you are an ignorant liberal.

P.S. You are a neo-con.

If it is proved that you are a terrorist, Then I hope you are locked away without trial.

[redsox]

Ur all pissed about the 4th amendment?????? Dudes get a grip. All the FBI not gov, but FBI is doing is Data-mining. Putting a word in their computer, and their computer looks for the word in your computer. They dont read every file you have. Look, if you are innocent, then don't freakin worry!

The FRONT in Iraq was/is needed. It along with the Patriot act have helped to stop terrorist attacks here.

And RaptorQuiz....You are a Great American

So let me see if I understand this correctly, you are saying that if someone is innocent, then it is ok for that person to be doubted regularly and he/she shouldn't take any offense to that? What a joke!

[Campo09]

They are eavesdropping on SUSPECTED TERRORISTS not you guys. Hey abc, your signature the line about peace, we all want peace but them terrorists wont let us have it.

[redsox]

But what defines a "suspected terrorist" - is it any Middle Eastern who has immigrated his way over to the U.S., any brown-skinned person who has a long beard? Who? I had read news about how Sikhs (a cast from India) were wrongfully treated (right after the World Trade Center attacks) - humiliated, beaten, and harnessed - just because their religion called for them to not cut their beards. Case of mistaken identity is prevalent in any country but after the September 11 attacks, it has been more so in United States. Airport security have these "random checks" in place - but what is so random about it when every person who has been checked is not of American decent.

[Sean O]

They are eavesdropping on SUSPECTED TERRORISTS not you guys. Hey abc, your signature the line about peace, we all want peace but them terrorists wont let us have it.

The terrorists don't want us to have peace, wow. I'm just going to guess you're a freshman in high school or still in middle school, and hope our failing public school system can attempt to teach you something about the world.

The worst thing a society can do is assume the opposition is "evil" or subhuman or any other one-dimensional melodramatic term. If you attempt to understand the opposition's actions, then you actually have the weapons with which to defeat them.

As for Raptor, who was throwing a blatant red herring out there by blaming every democratic president, what are the seeds to the current struggle? For the opposition of Osama Bin Laden and the formation of al qa'eda, it was our abandonment of Afghani rebels after initial support against the Soviets. Also, in the only connection between Osama and Iraq, our failure to support the kurds and other factional groups opposed to Saddam after the first Iraq war (which led to their mini-genocide), and our installation of US military bases on Saudi Islamic holy ground. This was all accomplished under Bush the first and Reagan.

Now, so I'm not committing my own red herring, everyone knows that Bush doesn't actually make any decisions in the current white house, but Cheney and Rumsfeld held high positions in those governments.

This administration has damaged this country so tremendously we may never recover. If you want to blame some nebulous terrorist supermen, be my guest, but you may as well blame it on martians.

[Rome-o-phobe]

Clinton attacked the kurds who were fighting the people who attacked us in 1993!

Sean-o, you just....ARG! The Democrates have caused all the trouble, they are socialist liberal communists.

Bush has been a very good president up til recently, and he does make the decisions.

[Sean O]

Clinton attacked the kurds who were fighting the people who attacked us in 1993!

Sean-o, you just....ARG! The Democrates have caused all the trouble, they are socialist liberal communists.

Bush has been a very good president up til recently, and he does make the decisions.

I hate when we get fake posters on mvpmods. I prefer when people actually believe what they're saying. I've noticed a lot more people posting on forums specifically saying stupid things to try to trick the regulars, and it's so strange.

nice try, rome.

[HardcoreLegend]

The beliefs laid out in the Constitution are so beautiful and pure that I can't believe what we've become.

Exactly. Like blacks are 3/5th a person and women have no rights.

[HardcoreLegend]

resulted in thousands of people being killed and maimed FOR NOTHING, I think it is reasonable to call BS on it.

Nothing? Even if you believe that Bush is a corrupt, immoral dictator...it isn't for nothing.

Thinking the worst of the American leadership, the war has brought the US a massive base of operations that they are going to lose from Saudia Arabia, a new controlled source of oil and a strategic launching point in a war with a soon-to-be nuclear Iran.

Under the most deceitful of reasons, the war has brought the United States a large number of military and national security resources they would not have. It is by no coincidence that the US built the largest embassy in the world in downtown Baghdad.

Look at a map. With an alliance with a moderate Saudia Arabia and troops stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan, do you not see the dilema Iran is facing strategically? They are surrounded by US forces and allies. There will be no Diego Garcia this time.

[krawhitham]

the war has brought the US a massive base of operations that they are going to lose from Saudia Arabia, a new controlled source of oil and a strategic launching point in a war with a soon-to-be nuclear Iran.

Under the most deceitful of reasons, the war has brought the United States a large number of military and national security resources they would not have. It is by no coincidence that the US built the largest embassy in the world in downtown Baghdad.

Look at a map. With an alliance with a moderate Saudia Arabia and troops stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan, do you not see the dilema Iran is facing strategically? They are surrounded by US forces and allies. There will be no Diego Garcia this time.

You say all that like it is a good thing, Jesus we're going to hell in a handbasket

[Padres67]

Interesting that you bring up Jesus-All of the signs in the middle East point to his soon return.

[krawhitham]

I've been none to be clever every once in awhile :)

[Sean O]

Thinking the worst of the American leadership, the war has brought the US a massive base of operations that they are going to lose from Saudia Arabia, a new controlled source of oil and a strategic launching point in a war with a soon-to-be nuclear Iran.

Under the most deceitful of reasons, the war has brought the United States a large number of military and national security resources they would not have.

And with the 1-2 trillion dollars we've lost because of this mess, we will fight this war with....? Also, isn't failing miserably in 2 countries simultaneously bad enough, without adding a third one onto the pile?

Third question, who's going to fight this war? There has never been less of a reason to join the military. At least WW1 and 2 were just.

[abc006]

What Sean O said.

Ur all pissed about the 4th amendment??????

Uh... yeah. We are pissed, it's a damn constitutional amendment that Bush and his cronies are trying to violate, it's called unconstitutional, what you're saying is disgusting. Basically you're saying:

1) I don't care about privacy and want searches without warrants or a good cause.

2) I like the patriot act and this "Protect America" act even if it does violate numerous amendments.

3) I would like suspected terrorists to be tried without a trial, a practice common in dictatoriships, even though it violates the sixth amendment, and even if they turn out to be innocent.

4) **** the Constituion.

5) **** the Bill of Rights

Could you just take a moment to read this entire thing. It probably won't do you any good with your IQ, but for other people it hopefully will:

http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/cn...rism/hr3162.pdf

P.S. You are a neo-con.

Do you even know what the hell Sean O is saying, let alone what you're saying? Probably not...

[el_jefe061]

Two of the most shameful events in American International-Diplomacy-History occured under the control of Democrat Presidents.

Where does Iran Contra, Watergate, the scandal of the current Bush administration, "41" crushing a rebellion by Iraqis that would have taken out Saddam in the first Gulf War, and Donald Rumsfeld personally giving Saddam weapons in the 80's, rank among shameful events?

President Kennedy betrayed Cuban revolutionaries that were promised our support in 1961. As a result, people desiring freedom from a Communist dictator died in the streets and their families were later executed in cold blood.

And who engineered the Bay of Pigs? It was Dwight Eisenhower. It was not a Kennedy plan, the foundation was laid out by the Eisenhower. It had Eisenhower's fingerprints all over it.

President Clinton failed to act in any decisive fashion in 1998 to support the first REAL "War on Terror" and allowed terrorist groups like Al Queda to continue to train, plan, and fund actions inside the United States and abroad.

Ever heard the term "Wag the Dog"? This is what the Republicans accused Bill Clinton of doing when he launched cruise missiles into Afghanistan to kill Bin Laden. They accused him of trying to distract people from Lewinsky. Although Clinton missed some opportunities with Bin Laden, this is not just black and white. Also, look at Clinton's biggest foreign policy blunder: Somalia. Who put us there? George Bush Sr.

My point is, it's wrong to point the finger just at Democratic Presidents. The 9/11 Commission proved that by showing that Clinton and Bush both should have shouldered the blame.

I'm not a fool. I am under no illusion that this (Bush) or any other administration is 100% open with the public... but I am also a firm believer that had Gore been in office, and not Bush, when the tradgedies of 9/11/2001 occured... we would be living in a far different world... and it would NOT be for the better... as some of us would like you to believe.

I've always wondered why this is even brought up; going into Afghanistan after September 11th was the biggest "duh" in the history

I could never understand why Conservatives blame terrorism on Democrats when two Republicans play a huge role after September 11th. Now, when I used to post on political boards I knew this like the back of my hand, so correct me if I'm wrong, but after September 11th President Bush drastically underfunded Homeland Security within cities. Police departments in New York City and elsewhere were left out in the cold. Rudy Giuliani, frontrunner and Republican demigod, ignored recommendations NOT to put the emergency control center of NYC within the World Trade Center, probably contributing to the deaths of many people on that day. All of this, is just the tip of the iceberg.

Thinking the worst of the American leadership, the war has brought the US a massive base of operations that they are going to lose from Saudia Arabia, a new controlled source of oil and a strategic launching point in a war with a soon-to-be nuclear Iran.

Under the most deceitful of reasons, the war has brought the United States a large number of military and national security resources they would not have. It is by no coincidence that the US built the largest embassy in the world in downtown Baghdad.

Look at a map. With an alliance with a moderate Saudia Arabia and troops stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan, do you not see the dilema Iran is facing strategically? They are surrounded by US forces and allies. There will be no Diego Garcia this time.

I have to agree with Sean O, and completely disagree with you. The war has killed relations with major military powers like Great Britain (They're never helping us again), France, and Germany. No military power will help us next time around. Not to mention it has cost so much money. Money that could help us for a real threat, like Iran or North Korea. Our troops are thin and overextended, leaving us bare for a real threat.

As horrible a person Saddam Hussein was, he didn't allow outside influences into Iraq. Despite what Conservatives try to spew out, Al Qaeda didn't get into Iraq until now. We broke open Iraq, we opened up the borders. Now we have Iran licking its chops, a civil war, and borders so open they put south Texas to shame. WE opened up Iraq for terrorists.

If strategically we had done the Iraq War correctly, we wouldn't be in the situation now. If we had a real coalition, not Japan sending playstations and Zulu Nation, funding from other countries (Let's face it: We did Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and some of those other Arab countries a huge favor by taking out Saddam), and a decent amount of troops, we wouldn't be having problems now. An exit strategy would have been nice too.

The biggest crime in this whole war is the fact that Dick Cheney, George Bush, and Donald Rumsfeld's blue balls for war in Iraq caused them to ignore Generals and every other military strategist who told them they were doing it the wrong way. It was rushed and now they're feeling the heat.

Anywho: Does anyone think that Democracy can actually work in the Middle East? Personally, I believe it can't. The cultural divisions in some places are too much, and full democracy just doesn't seem like it has a chance. I don't think it can work in Iraq unless it's divided up into 3 separate states. This is a place that has been around thousands of years (I'm not talking about the "state" Iraq, but Persia and Mesopotamia, the culture and etc), we're not going to get them to change right away.

[brutushayesosu]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0Pu4Iw9PYxc

[abc006]

Wow, for once I agree with el_jefe.