Who thinks Andy Pettite is better than Pedro Martinez

[Sean O]

so you guys are sayin pedro is > than ryan? along with walter johnson, sandy koufax, cy young, and steve carlton?

It's this simple, no pitcher in baseball history had a greater peak than Pedro Martinez. in 2000, he had a 1.74 ERA. The 2nd best starter in baseball was at 3.70. In 1999, he was at 2.04, the second best was 3.44.

2000 (Pedro then #2 in the league)

11.78 vs. 10.15 K/9

284 vs. 212 K's

5.31 vs. 7.52 H/9

.737 vs. 1.187 WHIP (!!!!!!!)

8.88 vs. 5.35 K/BB

ERA+: 291 vs. 132

Pedro was a freak. Cy Young didn't have to play in integration, and didn't have to throw that hard every pitch. Ryan walked a ton of people and had a ton of mediocre years. Koufax was around in the best years ever for pitchers, in an extreme pitcher's park, same with Gibson.

Pedro was a superfreak.

[hmsrenown]

To be honest, in this day and age where starters pitch less, Pedro with his tremendous ERA and K's is definitely good enough for him to be a first ballot HoFer.

Not to mention he came back after a ground breaking surgery, normally a guy with his injury would just hang up the cleats.

I'm just gonna add that Pedro did really well when playing half the game for 6 seasons at Fenway's odd dimensions. Comparing to his peers, he is for sure an all-time great.

[SESbb30]

pedro. definately pedro, i know andy was good, but, c'mon, pedro was amazing.

[D-Unit]

Pedro was f*cking great, but he is a dipsh*t headhunter.

[SESbb30]

forgot about that part, we're his daddy. ill never forget that.

[stEdfuNk]

Yeah, that whole daddy thing really stung when they came back from 0-3 to win the ALCS in 04

[el_jefe061]

And add to it his game 3 performance against the Cards in the "curse breaking" WS and you got yourself a pitcher who is an automatic for the HoF.

Not to mention the legendary relief performance against Cleveland. Outpitching Clemens in the following ALCS. Pedro is(was? The Mets haven't been in the playoffs with Pedro pitching so who knows now) a big game pitcher.

Pedro is easily a Hall of Famer. No pitcher, like it's been mentioned before, has been more dominant during his prime.

so you guys are sayin pedro is > than ryan? along with walter johnson, sandy koufax, cy young, and steve carlton?

Longevity wise, no. However, in his greatest seasons, you could easily argue he's the best ever. The amount of single season statistical records is ridiculous, and even more ridiculous considering it's in the steroid era, in Fenway, with the designated hitter.

Also, let's not forget that he easily should have won the Cy Young award in 2002 over Zito.

As for Pedro being an asshole... of course he is. He beaned Gerald Williams with the first pitch of the game, threw a 200+ lb elderly Don Zimmer to the ground, and is one of the notorious headhunters of the game. Does being an asshole take away from greatness? Ask Clemens and Schilling that question.

[HardcoreLegend]

Pedro is the best pitcher of all time.

nuf ced.

Bob Gibson is going to come to your house and punch you in the mouth.

[RaptorQuiz]

Bob Gibson is going to come to your house and punch you in the mouth.

nuf ced.

[HardcoreLegend]

Koufax was around in the best years ever for pitchers, in an extreme pitcher's park, same with Gibson.

Beyond the Boxscores disagrees with you:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2007/11/1/195757/719

Of course, we really don't want to get into how amazing Gibson's '68 season was, do we? I mean, I can pull it up if you like. The fact that the manager never had to come out to the mound and remove him from the game the ENTIRE season? ETC and so forth.

But no, congrats to Pedro. He was better than the 2nd best guy in the league at the time. What was that guys name again?

[RaptorQuiz]

They changed the rules for Bob Gibson. They lowered the mound 5" in 1969 because Bob Gibson MADE IT a pitcher's era with his 1968 performance.

Gibby FTW.

[RaptorQuiz]

...oh, but to be ON TOPIC:

Martinez is better than Pettite.

But Gibby was better than Martinez.

Andy < Pedro < Bob.

[HardcoreLegend]

They changed the rules for Bob Gibson. They lowered the mound 5" in 1969 because Bob Gibson MADE IT a pitcher's era with his 1968 performance.

Gibby FTW.

Not only that but they lowered the mound in '69 and the 34 year old Gibson came back out and won the Cy Young again in 1970.

He lost a year of his prime (1967) due to Roberto Clemente hitting a linedrive off of his thigh, snapping the leg in half.

[RaptorQuiz]

...Roberto Clemente hitting a linedrive off of his thigh, snapping the leg in half...

I hate it when that happens.

[MrDudleyDoWright]

andy is good, pedro is great

nuf ced :smokin:

[HardcoreLegend]

I hate it when that happens.

That's alright, in back to back starts (both against the Pirates) in 1968, Bob Gibson pitched 2 complete 9 inning games and struckout 29 batters. He gave up 6 runs, only 3 earned.

The game before those 2, he threw a 9 inning CG against Philadelphia and struck out 11, and followed those two games with a 10 inning CG striking out 8. In a 4 game span, he struck out 48 batters.

To Bob Gibson!

[RaptorQuiz]

So you're saying he threw four complete games in a row (9, 9, 9, and 10 innings)?

So during this 4-start span he pitched 37 innings and struck out 48?

EDIT: Good work changing "struck" to "struck out" - lol. If he had "struck" 29 batters - that would likely have ALSO been a record of some sort. :wink:

[HardcoreLegend]

So you're saying he threw four complete games in a row (9, 9, 9, and 10 innings)?

So during this 4-start span he pitched 37 innings and struck out 48?

Yes. It was part of a 6 game span in which he threw 6 CG and struck out 60 batters in 55 innings.

Not to be confused with the 13 game span in which he threw 13 CG and struck out 96 batters in 116 innings.

Of course, those two spans were interupted by the 13 inning game against the Cubs in which he pitched 11 innings, struckout 10 and the Cardinals pinch hit for him in that 11th inning so that Phil Gagliano could lay down a sacrafice bunt to move the tieing run over.

It's all a bit confusing, but let's just stick with the 4 game span.

[Sean O]

1). Gibson, once again, had his best year in the Year of the Pitcher. It's even the first headline on the 1968 in Baseball wikipedia page. It was quite literally the easiest time in baseball history to be a pitcher. Pedro Martinez played in the single worst year for pitchers ever. 291 vs. 258 ERA+, and that includes the DH.

2). Busch Stadium was a pitcher's park in 1968 relative to the league, with a PF of 97. Fenway Park was 103.

3). Pedro was almost a full 2 points lower than the 2nd best pitcher in 2000. There were 4 other pitchers within an ERA point of Gibson. Lg. Avg in 1968 was 2.90, in 2000 it was 5.07.

4). Pedro had a WHIP of .737, Gibson .853. And despite Pedro throwing almost 90 less innings, he struck out 18 more people.

5). Total number of ERA+ seasons of over 200 for Gibson: 1. Pedro: 5. Gibson's next highest was 164, Pedro's is 243.

6). Career ERA for Gibson: 2.91 (lgERA 3.71). Pedro: 2.80 (4.51).

------------

Pedro's Career rankings :

WHIP: 3rd (1st liveball)

H/9: 5th

K/9: 3rd

K: 15th

K/BB: 3rd (2nd)

ERA+: 1st (13 points ahead of the 2nd best pitcher)

Pedro was a different species from every other pitcher in 2000, and it was not a fluke season. Look at his numbers. They are simply superhuman.

Comparing him to Andy Pettitte is an insult.

[RaptorQuiz]

Comparing him [Pedro Martinez] to Andy Pettitte is an insult.

That part, at least, I completely agree with.

Pedro is easily the best pitcher who is still active.

[MrDudleyDoWright]

Comparing him [Pedro Martinez] to Andy Pettitte is an insult.

I agree

[el_jefe061]

EDIT: Good work changing "struck" to "struck out" - lol. If he had "struck" 29 batters - that would likely have ALSO been a record of some sort. Wink

Insert Ankiel Joke Here

[NYM]

Pedro has to be one of the best pitchers in ML history. His stuff is just electric.

Also, he adjusts, unlike most pitchers. Randy Johnson and Pedro were pretty much the same. Dominant, threw hard. The difference is, Pedro learned how to work the corners and mix in off speed pitches briliantly, while RJ still tried to throw a 88 MPH fastball over the plate and expect to win.

The fact Pedro throws 88-92 and is still dominating shows how great a PITCHER, not just some ML pitcher throwing the ball as hard as he can even though he's way past his prime.

[MrDudleyDoWright]

I can't believe this thread is still going strong

[RobAtPace]

from www.baseball-reference.com , a great website with alot of stats:

Pettite

Black Ink: Pitching - 7 (320) (Average HOFer ≈ 40)

Gray Ink: Pitching - 102 (198) (Average HOFer ≈ 185)

HOF Standards: Pitching - 34.0 (101) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)

HOF Monitor: Pitching - 102.0 (91) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Overall Rank in parentheses.

Martinez

Black Ink: Pitching - 55 (22) (Average HOFer ≈ 40)

Gray Ink: Pitching - 215 (31) (Average HOFer ≈ 185)

HOF Standards: Pitching - 60.0 (16) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)

HOF Monitor: Pitching - 204.5 (20) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Overall Rank in parentheses.

Pedro, even after his arm fell off, in his last 3 games with the Mets pitched:

SEP 15 vs PHI: ND - 6ip, 1er, 9k, 0bb (98 pitches)

SEP 21 vs @FLA: W - 5ip, 3er, 7k, 2bb (90 pitches)

SEP 27 vs STL: L - 7ip, 2er, 8k, 1bb (105 pitches)

As long as Pedro's healthy, I think he's going to win another 15 games.