Iraq: The War Card by CPI

[Sean O]

http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/Def...overview&id=945

Required reading for democrats, republicans and independents alike. Whether you supported the war or not, here are 935 instances of blatant misinformation, which really makes you wonder why we went in the first place.

[rolie]

Reading the public opinion page is pretty entertaining. I can't believe half the people polled thought Saddam was involved. That was awhile ago. I just cant believe how gullible people are.

Btw I'm not democrat or republican. I equally hate both parties. Most are all robots and are told what to do by their campaign contributers. It's so hard for me to find a good candidate these days. The good ones are back stabbed by their own party and you never hear about them. Heres an entertaining video made last year.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

[AstroEric]

The good ones are back stabbed by their own party and you never hear about them.

I concur. I like Kucinich, but I know the only reason he can speak the truth is because he has no chance of winning. The Republicans currently have a similar situation with Ron Paul.

[Kccitystar]

Today, no matter what the issue is, whether it's a war, or a cult, or anything else, all you need is time and effort and you can get a pretty good handle on almost any issue.

[Sean O]

I concur. I like Kucinich, but I know the only reason he can speak the truth is because he has no chance of winning. The Republicans currently have a similar situation with Ron Paul.

Yeah, except Ron Paul is nuts. Privatizing anything for the public good is so idiotic, I can't believe anyone truly believes it. We privatized healthcare, look how great that's going!

Why would be put giant corporations, whose only goal is to increase profits, in charge of something ostensibly for the common good? Corporations are just as, if not moreso, evil and conniving as the worst governmental institutions, and yet many libertarians seem to go nuts trying to give away the farm.

At least Ron Paul voted against the Iraq war, and unlike Giuliani, thinks waterboarding is torture. God, I never thought that would be something that required discussion, like a national debate on whether or not the sky is occasionally blue.

[KillerBs]

Waterboarding is torture, and everyone knows it. I think they are just debating whether or not they should use torture, but they don't want to look bad, so they debate whether or not it is torture.

[abc006]

Isn't debating whether one should use torture just as blatantly obvious as whether waterboarding is torture?

Ron Paul's economic views are so incredibly messed up and creepy. He's practically a Social Darwinist. I'm not sure most of his supporters actually know what he's saying and suggesting.

[Sean O]

Waterboarding is torture, and everyone knows it. I think they are just debating whether or not they should use torture, but they don't want to look bad, so they debate whether or not it is torture.

HUME: Mayor Giuliani, the former Director of Central Intelligence, George Tenet, the current head of the CIA have both said that the most valuable intelligence tool they have had has been the information gained from what are called “enhanced interrogation techniques,†to include, presumably, waterboarding. What is your view whether such techniques should be applied in a scenario like the one I described?

GIULIANI: In the hypothetical that you gave me, which assumes that we know there is going to be another attack and these people know about it, I would tell the people who had to do the interrogation to use every method they can think of. Shouldn’t be torture, but every method they can think of.

HUME: Water boarding?

GIULIANI: I would say every method they could think of, and I would support them in doing that because I have seen — [applause] — I have seen what can happen when you make a mistake about this and I don’t want to see another 3,000 people dead in New York or any place else.

----------------

And this would be why Giuliani can't be our next president.

[KillerBs]

Here's an interesting question. If you could prevent, with absolute certainty, another terror attack on the United States, by torturing (Nothing that would cause permanent damage. Waterboarding and that sort of thing.) three or four Al-Qaeda operatives, would you do it?

[fred13]

Here's an interesting question. If you could prevent, with absolute certainty, another terror attack on the United States, by torturing (Nothing that would cause permanent damage. Waterboarding and that sort of thing.) three or four Al-Qaeda operatives, would you do it?

I don't think anyone wouldn't. But the 'absolute certainty' part is never the case. Obviously, in such a hypothetical question, the answer is blatantly clear, but in reality, no one has absolute certainty about anything.

[Sean O]

Hypotheticals like that just don't occur though. There is no reason to believe that a suspect that is being tortured will actually tell the truth, as there are definite instances (including one in the CPI report) of an Al Qa'eda operative lying just to stop from being tortured anymore.

I think that our nation used to mean something, and should mean something in the international community. And this means that, regardless of the situation, we cannot torture anybody, and that we maintain the civil liberties of every single person we deal with. I don't care if it's someone arrested for insider trading or Saddam Hussein, both should be treated with dignity and according to the law.

How can we possibly say that we have the moral authority to displace Hussein when we're doing the exact same thing he did? How could Lincoln say that he was protecting the union by suspending habeas corpus? I'd like to have a country that I believe, fundamentally, will do the right thing, but the same people who talk lip service about patriotism don't give a damn for what the country stands for.

I grew up visiting every historic site within 100 miles of my home up here, so I've seen enough of the revolutionary war sites and know enough about the men and women behind it to have fundamental respect for their good ideals. The criminals in Washington have none.

[KillerBs]

First, hypotheticals like that do occur. Sometimes you know with, absolute certainty, that you can save lives with information that you know the enemy has. I'm not going to lie and say that I never saw anyone doing things that were "questionable" in order to extract information from a Viet Cong or NVA.

Second, we aren't doing the exact same thing he was. He tortured people who had done nothing wrong just to inspire fear and he used methods that caused permanent physical damage, which waterboarding (if done correctly) does not.

Third, while I don't think suspending habeas corpus was right, desperate times call for desperate measures, so I can see the reasoning behind it.

[AstroEric]

I'm assigning this essay to my students next week (I think it may be a longer version, in the Norton Reader): http://www.coc.cc.ca.us/departments/philosophy/levin.html

I'll let you guys know what they thought.

--Eric

[Sean O]

First, hypotheticals like that do occur. Sometimes you know with, absolute certainty, that you can save lives with information that you know the enemy has. I'm not going to lie and say that I never saw anyone doing things that were "questionable" in order to extract information from a Viet Cong or NVA.

Second, we aren't doing the exact same thing he was. He tortured people who had done nothing wrong just to inspire fear and he used methods that caused permanent physical damage, which waterboarding (if done correctly) does not.

Third, while I don't think suspending habeas corpus was right, desperate times call for desperate measures, so I can see the reasoning behind it.

If it comes down to that, then I'd rather people die for the possibility rather than crap on everything that this nation should stand for. I don't want to be a part of a nation that tortures people, especially when it's part of an illegal, unnecessary war. Because, obviously, we are now seen as a nation of torturers and war mongers, which in turn most certainly helps in the recruitment of new militants. Either we're clean, or we're not, and with this administration, we aren't even close to clean.

[KillerBs]

You'd rather American soldiers die than a North Vietnamese communist get the crap beat out of him? Principles are great things to have, but you have to use common sense. Most principles don't apply during war.

[rolie]

My republican friends call me an expatriate because they think I don't support the troops. I had a couple relatives and friends serve in Iraq, all branches. I'm lucky that they all came back in one peace. Unfortunately some of their friends did not. I never had the courage to tell them that they died for no reason and were not defending anyone's freedom. There is a big difference when it comes to distrusting government actions and supporting the troops. I am freaking sick and tired of people confusing the two.

[Sean O]

You'd rather American soldiers die than a North Vietnamese communist get the crap beat out of him? Principles are great things to have, but you have to use common sense. Most principles don't apply during war.

Listen to me, I'm saying that there is cause and effect in the world. When we torture supposed terrorists (this government has never provided any reason to believe a single thing they say about who is a terrorist, since they're proven liars), we only create more terrorists. It is counter productive. You're saying I don't have common sense, what is common sense about creating more terrorists and more reason for everyone to hate us?

All of this slippery slope crap is getting away from the reality, that we are creating the insurgents that are killing us in Iraq. Do you think that the thousands of people we were fighting were trained by Al Qa'eda, and were just in Iraqi sleeper cells? No, they're pissed that we killed their family in the bombing, and they want revenge. When we torture people, we give them all the more reason to think we are evil.

You say that Hussein tortured people who hadn't done anything wrong. Well, if you were an Iraqi citizen, and had been lied to in literally every single instance by the US government, how different would it seem to you? I sure as hell wouldn't want to be "liberated" by people running secret prisoner camps against the geneva convention, when there are US citizens detained in the weeks after 9/11 who will never be brought to trial.

[mvp23]

Reading the public opinion page is pretty entertaining. I can't believe half the people polled thought Saddam was involved. That was awhile ago. I just cant believe how gullible people are.

Btw I'm not democrat or republican. I equally hate both parties. Most are all robots and are told what to do by their campaign contributers. It's so hard for me to find a good candidate these days. The good ones are back stabbed by their own party and you never hear about them. Heres an entertaining video made last year.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Thanks for the link! :yeah:

[JP_Frost]

Listen to me, I'm saying that there is cause and effect in the world. When we torture supposed terrorists (this government has never provided any reason to believe a single thing they say about who is a terrorist, since they're proven liars), we only create more terrorists. It is counter productive. You're saying I don't have common sense, what is common sense about creating more terrorists and more reason for everyone to hate us?

All of this slippery slope crap is getting away from the reality, that we are creating the insurgents that are killing us in Iraq. Do you think that the thousands of people we were fighting were trained by Al Qa'eda, and were just in Iraqi sleeper cells? No, they're **** that we killed their family in the bombing, and they want revenge. When we torture people, we give them all the more reason to think we are evil.

You say that Hussein tortured people who hadn't done anything wrong. Well, if you were an Iraqi citizen, and had been lied to in literally every single instance by the US government, how different would it seem to you? I sure as hell wouldn't want to be "liberated" by people running secret prisoner camps against the geneva convention, when there are US citizens detained in the weeks after 9/11 who will never be brought to trial.

Obviously I'm not American, so I won't comment on any of these issues, but I just wanted to say that this is one of the most intelligent and thought provoking replies I've read in a long while.

[KillerBs]

Listen to me, I'm saying that there is cause and effect in the world. When we torture supposed terrorists (this government has never provided any reason to believe a single thing they say about who is a terrorist, since they're proven liars), we only create more terrorists. It is counter productive. You're saying I don't have common sense, what is common sense about creating more terrorists and more reason for everyone to hate us?

All of this slippery slope crap is getting away from the reality, that we are creating the insurgents that are killing us in Iraq. Do you think that the thousands of people we were fighting were trained by Al Qa'eda, and were just in Iraqi sleeper cells? No, they're **** that we killed their family in the bombing, and they want revenge. When we torture people, we give them all the more reason to think we are evil.

You say that Hussein tortured people who hadn't done anything wrong. Well, if you were an Iraqi citizen, and had been lied to in literally every single instance by the US government, how different would it seem to you? I sure as hell wouldn't want to be "liberated" by people running secret prisoner camps against the geneva convention, when there are US citizens detained in the weeks after 9/11 who will never be brought to trial.

I never said anything about supporting torture of Al-Qaeda operatives unless it was in a desperate situation. I agree with you on most of your points. I just misunderstood what you meant in your reply. I used an example from the Vietnam War, and you responded that you would rather they die.

Oh, and no, the thousands of people that we are fighting weren't in Iraqi sleeper cells, but most of them were militant Muslims long before the invasion. The invasion just opened Iraq up to Al-Qaeda, which sucks.

[Sean O]

The worst part of it is you know Bush is looking at the sectarian violence and he's dying to say "look, Iraq was infested with Al Qa'eda all along!" but he just can't say anything.

I'm certainly no fan of Robert McNamara, but I agree with one point he makes about the Vietnam War which applies today. In the 60s and 70s, he says no attempts whatsoever were made at a high-level to understand their adversaries in North Vietnam. If you cannot understand your opposition, especially when it comes to a case now where we are an occupying force, how can you hope to win their trust?

If we torture suspected insurgents, it doesn't matter how much good we do, there will be tremendous opposition from the normal citizens of Iraq. For every slight we take, we have obey the Geneva Convention to the letter in every single case. If you're an Iraqi citizen, dealing with a psychotic insurgency movement that will stop at nothing for victory, would you rather see an occupying force of crazed torturers or benevolent peacekeepers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_fog_of_wa...ns_from_Vietnam

I highly recommend The Fog Of War if you've never seen it. How many of those Vietnam lessons were ignored by the current presidency?

[AstroEric]

I highly recommend The Fog Of War if you've never seen it.

Though it takes us into potential off-topic territory, I highly recommend any documentary that Errol Morris has directed.

--Eric