Official Political (Republican/Democrat) Debate Thread

[krawhitham]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/03/p...y_n_123647.html

[krawhitham]

(ST. PAUL, MINN.) – John McCain’s campaign threatened legal action against the National Enquirer today for running a story about McCain’s running mate, Sarah Palin, allegedly having an affair with her husband’s business partner.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/03/po...ry4413030.shtml

[krawhitham]

Sarah Palin has an Abramoff problem - a Pro-Palin illegal mailer was sent during her gubernatorial campaign on behalf of Palin by the RGA, the DC group that got money from Abramoff, Reed, etc.

She advocated AGAINST mine safety / pollution control

She has an ANTI-ENVIRONMENT RECORD and is on the wrong side of global warming and doesn't think polar bears should be listed as endangered because it interferes with her drilling plans.

She's against sex education - abstinence only.

She appears to oppose windfall taxes on oil companies at the national level but supported them to benefit her state.

Believes Creationism should be taught in science classes

Don't believe the whispers that she supportive of the GLBT community. She's opposed to state health benefits for same-sex partners and only vetoed a resolution that would have ended state benefits because the Supreme Court had already declared it unconstitutional.

She's opposed to universal health care and stem cell research

No foreign policy experience? According to the folks at FOX think she has foreign policy experience because "Alaska is near Russia." Oh, and she didn't even have a passport until last year.

She doesn't know what the Vice President really does.

This choice is NOT helping McCain's polling numbers, especially with women.

McCain only met Sarah Palin ONCE and talked to her TWICE making this a purely cynical and desperate political appointment by HIS CAMPAIGN not by him! She's not really HIS VP choice.

She's deeply connected to the Bridge to Nowhere.

She stated that she would force her own daughter to have a rapist's child.

She has 3 houses

Terre pointed out that she's connected to VECO - the company at the heart of Ted Stevens' troubles. She also received an endorsement from Ted that has suddenly disappeared from her webpage.

She called candidate Clinton a whiner. Why does everyone in the McCain campaign think others are whiners?

She apparently hasn't taken a stand on most major political issues

Her selection has created a major rift among the Republicans, especially Romney & Pawlenty.

Past quotes by Rove make Palin's selection look like desperation.

Palin may have been scrubbing her own wikipedia page

Sarah Palin, Buchanite - Palin supported Pat Buchanan in 2000, a fact which may alienate certain Florida voters. Hat tip to misslotus

She was vetted too quickly and McCain only picked her the night before making the announcement.

She's still focused on Alaska not the fact the she would be Vice President for the whole nation.

She participated in a profane on-air attack againt the Alaskan State Senate President and giggled at the word b*tch..

Like Bush and McCain, she can't admit when she's wrong.

She's linked to the Dominionist movement and Joel's Army.

The United Steelworkers have already spoken out against her.

She was a bad mayor who left her town's economy in tatters.

She supported Obama's energy plan, but suddenly these references are disappearing.

Some of the PUMA's believe that John McCain is patronizing them.

Additionally, this choice eliminates the "He's not ready" attack on Obama.

This choice raises the issue of McCain's age (Is Palin ready to take over if he keels over).

It also raises the issue of McCain's past unfavorable statements against women.

Additionally, this choice reminds us that McCain is an adulterer and raises the spectre that he is just a dirty old man with wandering eyes.

Palin's husband is on BP's payroll creating a possible conflict of interest.

She made extremely poor use of Eminent Domain during her time as mayor.

She favors censoring library books (Alert your local librarian!)

Sen. Ted Stevens and Rep. Don Young (both under investigation) campaigned for her in 2006.

She didn't support McCain in the primaries.

The top 2 ALASKAN newspapers question her fitness for the job.

She supports aerial hunting of wolves even though it was outlawed by Congress. She's using a loophole.. Hat tip to Scarce

She's part of Feminists for Life and is AGAINST BIRTH CONTROL. It would be awesome if someone asked her McCain's now famous "should insurance companies cover viagra/birth control" question.

Undecideds apparently don't like the Palin pick. Thanks marabout40!

More environmental problems - She fighting to prevent Belugas from being listed as endangered. Thanks again Terre!

In addition to polar bears, belugas, and wolves, for the first time in Alaskan history she is supporting hunting black bear sows and cubs. Thank you for the information Bodean.

She's either going to be distracted by being deposed soon or she is going to draw negative attention by trying to avoid being deposed.

There have been discussion of witness tampering and possible impeachment hearings related to charges of her abuse of power

MEME: Palin's selection provides a clear example of John McCain's hasty decision-making and poor judgement on important issues (like who would be best qualified to take his place if he could not complete his term).

She wants to destroy 1.5 MILLION ACRES of ANWR, not the 2000 acres she has lied about on the news.

Palin stated "I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq.."

[piratesmvp04]

You're failing to see the motive and attitude behind both statements. There's a huge difference between Rev. Wright saying, "God d*** America," and me telling someone, "The Bible says that God will punish bad people on Judgement Day." The attitude is totally different. Rev. Wright has a clearly anti-America, racist attitude that he won't hide. I didn't hear enough of Palin's pastor to say for sure that he also has the same belief. It can definitely be implied depending on how you see it. But if this is a court case, Palin's pastor's words are inconclusive, while Rev. Wright hasn't held anything back in his messages.

[BigRog]

Kraw, I think that is some hard evidence no one could argue with.

[Sean O]

Oh kraw, Biden has had that many scandals since he was picked, right? Remember.... give me a bit, and I'll think of a recent scandal. He rides Amtrak each day, is that one?

Or, is it that Obama actually vetted every possible candidate, while McCain didn't even look into Palin's background?

[meteamo]

Dems are so ignorant. Anyone that is in the Republican pary or supports a Republican, they always find ways to make fun of them. CNN was making fun of how her daughter had a baby, but that is nothing about presidency. CNN is the most biased news network out.

Hold on .... did you even read any of my other posts? And to assume that I'm a democrat and that dems are so ignorant, that's just ignorance right there. Talking about Palin and talking about Lieberman are two different things. Lieberman claims that he's a Democrat. He used to be a Democrat before he decided to become Independent. He's more of a Republican than a Democrat. By saying that he was still a Democrat, he wasn't telling the truth. And if he was saying this, how can we believe anything else he was saying? I thought Thomas gave a good speech but Lieberman did not. And if you read anything I posted in this thread, I've done nothing but stick up for Palin. And I don't care about CNN. I don't watch them ... except for Hurricane News. MSNBC and FoxNews are the main channels for news. MSNBC is slanted toward the Democratic side and FoxNews is slanted toward the Republican side. Plain and simple. As I said before, you can't get all your news from one newspaper or even from one TV channel and if you do, you can get just as biased as them.

this is where your true ignorance comes out. he has to side with a certain party? why not support whomever he feels would be better in office? seems like this is exactly how every other politician should be.

Read above reply. Do you even read the posts in this thread and follow the conversations or just want you want to read? And from my experience, those who immediately point to someone else's alleged or one sided perceived ignorance is usually committing the same thing themselves. People can support anybody they want. Hillary can support McCain. The Kennedy family can support McCain. Giuliani can come out and support Obama. Even Bush can come out and support Obama. It's all good. That's not the point. The point is if someone who used to be Democratic and is now Independent and support Republican issues, to claim that he is still Democratic and then to turn around and tell everyone that they can trust him is just like a car salesman named Honest Al telling everyone that they can trust him. That's unbelievable.

I do agree with you that every politician shouldn't care about stupid party politics and support whomever they should support but those same politicans shouldn't claim to be something that the aren't and expect us to believe them in the same sentence. But, if you are a member of one party (Republican, Democratic, Independent, Green, Whig, etc) and someone from the other party supports your cause you wouldn't have an issue [and would tend to think that they are just justifying your cause] but if the shoe was on the other foot and if they still claim to be a member of your party even when they really aren't, you would have an issue with them or what they claim. For example, if Giuliani was to become an Independent, support Obama and during a speech during the DNC still claim that he's still a Republican and people should trust him about various things he says about Obama, how would Republicans react? In my book, Giuliani wouldn't be believeable because he would be doing the same thing that Lieberman did and claimed. It's not about whether if someone is Republican or Democratic or Independent ... it's about whether or not if they are believable when talking about any relevant issues based upon what they claim and their history. But people for some reason tend to think someone is saying something because it's an attack on Democrats or Republicans. Some people unfortunately do that, like all the idiots at both MSNBC and FoxNews. There are a ton of people at either news channel that are biased one way or the other. There is no fair news anymore. People that believe heavily in the Democratic cause will think that MSNBC is fair and FoxNews is totally biased. And those that believe heavily in the Republican cause will think that MSNBC is totally biased and FoxNews is fair. Meanwhile, people with common sense will believe that both are biased and unfair. I tend to think the same goes for CNN but I don't even watch them. So, yes ... maybe I'm ignorant enough to believe that people are not biased one way or the other or that ignorant enough that FoxNews or MSNBC do tell the news fairly as well as people that unfairly attack Palin because of her kid or McCain because of his adopted kid (that Bush in the election 8 years ago claimed McCain had a love child instead of adopting a kid from Africa -- btw ... I'm not sure why McCain forgave Bush for this) or that those who claimed Obama was affilliated with some conspiracy to take over the US. This is all bull and if people end up believing it ... or they continue to spew the idiotic rhetoric that both of the parties and media outlets and third party groups portray, then this country is in a serious mess. Too many lies and dirty politic stunts destroy lives unnecessarily and there's no accountablity since none of it is punishable.

[Sean O]

One thing to remember as we think of Vinegar Joe Lieberman's speech last night is how he begged and pleaded for Obama to campaign with him in 2006. Lieberman, after getting dumped as a democrat, desperately wanted Barack to appear with him.

Nice way to show your gratitude, Joe.

[Kayxero]

Kraw is a top notch researcher and link provider. Im most shocked at the rape thing. I would NEVER EVER force my daughter(if I had one) to have a rape baby. I am for letting the women make her own choice. However I hate the idea of killing a fetus.

I had a long talk with one of my gal pals and I told her that I am ok with abortion if its like the morning after pill, or not a well formed child yet. When it gets the point that you can see a lil person, I feel guilty. But I let everyone make the decisions they want without judgment. It all depends on the circumstances too, as I have known some girls back in high school who had 2 or 3(rumors tho), but they were early, 1 month or less along abortions. If you cannot support a child and you think itd be best for everyone, then so be it. But it cannot be a constant get out of jail free card. But to each their own.

Who am I to tell someone what to do with their body. Omg imagine if there was self intimacy laws. Lol, silly example, but i could not handle that haha. I love myself lol

[Gordo]

What makes you think so highly of her debating skills?

She confident, poised, sharp, well spoken, well principled and well grounded. And she's not a career politician. She's actually the feminist that feminists wanted to have..... and now that they have her, they don't know what to say or what to think about her.

[Sean O]

She confident, poised, sharp, well spoken, well principled and well grounded. And she's not a career politician. She's actually the feminist that feminists wanted to have..... and now that they have her, they don't know what to say or what to think about her.

Yup, most feminists are pro-life members of the right-wing fringe.

[meteamo]

I think she is doing well so far.

Do you think that protester will have any impact upon anything?

[Gordo]

Yup, most feminists are pro-life members of the right-wing fringe.

The problem is that today's feminists have tarnished the original meaning and definition of feminism. If left-coasters are so open minded, then they should be okay with people who promote life over abortion.....but they can't be. Quite a paradox, isn't it?

[Kayxero]

Shouldn't those opposed to abortion have the open mind to let everyone make their own decisions. I dont see how the decision affects anyone else walking around but the mother?

I see it as a "mind your own beezwax" issue.

[Sean O]

The problem is that today's feminists have tarnished the original meaning and definition of feminism. If left-coasters are so open minded, then they should be okay with people who promote life over abortion.....but they can't be. Quite a paradox, isn't it?

And you are the one who gets to decide the original meaning and definition of feminism? That's laughable.

All I hear are people forcing rape and incest victims into parenthood. Because that's what Jesus would want. Personally, I think teenage crackheads and rape victims shouldn't be mothers if they don't think they're ready. But, I apparently just hate America.

I see it as a "mind your own beezwax" issue.

The party of small government disagrees. Small government, except when it comes to increasing our national debt by 3 trillion dollars and telling you what to do with your own bodies and in your own bedrooms.

[The Big O]

When will the Republicans wake up and realize more oil isn't the answer? Alternative fuels are the way to go, and Obama and the Democrats get that.

Drilling in ANWR is a stopgap solution at best. What happens when that oil runs out?

The problem is there aren't enough refineries anyway, we've got tons of oil but not enough resources to refine it to fuel. That's why Katrina hurt us so bad, it shut down refineries.

And on another note, did McCain look like a fragile old man on stage to anybody else. He even acted a little weird and out of place up there, like he was senile or something.

There is a chance that if people elect McCain, they are electing Palin as the next President, and that scares the hell out of me...

[Sean O]

Drilling in ANWR is a stopgap solution at best. What happens when that oil runs out?

Also, don't forget the literally thousands of non-ANWR sites that haven't yet been drilled, and that any ANWR operations would take 7 years before we see any benefit. If we are in a position where we're frantically searching for oil in 7 years, we're doomed.

Teddy Roosevelt would not be happy with his party today.

[Kayxero]

Check this out. My Modern Asia History Professor today said this, paraphrased.

-I believe that McCain and some of his buddies from around the time of the Vietnam War are trying to sort of go back in time. Because that went over so well for us(sarcasm), though many do not want to admit how wrong we were to interfere and what a loss it was. What a big success. It seems like these guys want to make it up in Iraq, and show that they can liberate a people.

I will give the US credit for South Korea compared to what happened with the North, but after Vietnam how have we not learned to stop meddling. I fear an even bigger war is on our hands if we do not go with Obama. And I do not want to hear this guy talk about exp, especially with his veep candidate. Sell out.-

Thats basically what he said in a nutshell. He did ramble for a good 10 minutes and have a small discussion in class. Hes been all over the world and knows the sentiment people feel for our foreign affairs and the affects it has had on certain countries. The US just needs to build up a better friend base again. I know I am just tired of meeting foreigners and being told anything along the lines of"oh americans are ok but your government is trash"

[The Big O]

Be very afraid folks. So much for the separation of Church and state...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG1vPYbRB7k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k84m2orSOaM&feature=related

[HardcoreLegend]

When will the Republicans wake up and realize more oil isn't the answer? Alternative fuels are the way to go, and Obama and the Democrats get that.

Drilling in ANWR is a stopgap solution at best. What happens when that oil runs out?

It's a start. The problem with saying that we are going to use alternative fuel sources is that no one has discovered it yet. We pushed ethanol 4 years ago and where are we today? A place were it uses more oil to create ethanol than it does to simply fill your car up with gasoline.

The gasoline prices are run by speculators and the speculators run a muck when the Iraq War and Hurricane Katrina created this perception that we may be having oil shortages. They kept pushing the price of oil up and up and the value of the dollar down.

What drilling does, even if it isn't for 10 years, is increases the perception that the US will have more oil in the future. And in a futures market that drives the prices, that is huge.

And, if finding an alternative fuel source fails, would you rather wait ANOTHER 10 years to tap into domestic oil reserves.

The problem is there aren't enough refineries anyway, we've got tons of oil but not enough resources to refine it to fuel. That's why Katrina hurt us so bad, it shut down refineries.

And Barrack Obama is going to build more refineries?

I agree with you on all your points, that more oil isn't the ultimate solution and that the US lacks the proper refinery capacity to meet needs but that doesn't mean we shouldn't drill. Especially in a state like Alaska that was only admitted to the US FOR ITS NATURAL RESOURCES.

[The Big O]

This is disgusting, Palin can attack Obama left and right, but the Democrats have to tiptoe because she's a woman.

Somebody used the word "shrill" to describe her and you think somebody would have committed a felony according to CNN...

Race should have no place in this election and neither should gender. It's kinda too bad. Hence all the second guessing of Biden instead of Hillary as Obama's running mate. If a woman gets John McCain elected just because she's a woman, I will have lost faith in the people of this country...

[meteamo]

Hey! As someone who once saw a TV show that was based in Alaska, I highly take a fence to what you said kind sir. Alaska was admitted for the Polar Bears.

J/K ... I wonder what Russia currently thinks of that purchase we made and how much they would like Alaska back.

Alternative Fuel Sources:

What are the alternative Fuel sources besides ethanol? I can only think of Natural Gas at this time but that has a lot of issues. How about methane? Was something going on with that?

This is disgusting, Palin can attack Obama left and right, but the Democrats have to tiptoe because she's a woman.

...

If a woman gets John McCain elected just because she's a woman, I will have lost faith in the people of this country...

Didn't Biden during the DNC attack McCain as much as Palin attacked Obama during the RNC? I thought one of the roles of the Veep [as mentioned by someone else while the DNC was going on] was to be the attack dog on the opposition's Presidential Candidate. She had to attack Obama because if she didn't, people would say she's too soft.

A woman won't get McCain elected. The issues will get McCain elected [or not elected]. She is there to provide things that McCain lacked. The Right Wing and the Purist of the Republican party didn't like McCain that much. They like Palin because she is more conservative than he is. And if the people look at the issues that she supports, then they will decide for themselves based upon the issues and not whether or not she's a woman. I think the debate between Palin and Biden will do well. It'll be his issues verse her issues. Nothing more. They don't agree on a lot of issues if any at all in any event.

I may not agree with her but it seems like she does the same thing for the Republican Party that Obama does for his ... give each of the supporters hope. In any event ... which of the debates come first? Does the VP debate come first or is it grouped in between the other debates?

*edit*

Replaced "onced" with "once" as I just found out that "onced" isn't an actual word. :lol:

[The Big O]

Hydrogen fuel cells are the answer, unfortunately they don't seem to get as much promotion here as in Europe and the reason for that is because the big oil companies have all bought into ethanol and biofuels.

[meteamo]

Hydrogen fuel cells are the answer, unfortunately they don't seem to get as much promotion here as in Europe and the reason for that is because the big oil companies have all bought into ethanol and biofuels.

Oh Okay. But doesn't that only produce electricity? Oil is used for more than just gasoline. How about heating your home? And for BBQ? Or can you use the cells for that too? And if so, isn't that putting all your eggs in one basket, kind of like what we are doing with oil now? I was talking in terms of Natural Gas, which I may be against unless if they can make everything about it safer and less dangerous. Because for electricity, there's nuclear power plants, wind mills, the hydrogen cells you mentioned and so forth.

BTW ... to go off topic for a sec ... all nice stadiums you did ....

[The Big O]

Oh Okay. Thanks. What are the downsides of that? Is there anything else besides Hydrogen fuel cells? For example, to replace oil for heating, oil for BBQ, etc.

BTW ... to go off topic for a sec ... all nice stadiums you did ....

The only downside is cost as hydrogen is renewable. But it will be expensive at first until the technology is more widely used and available, but the oil companies can't make money off of that so ethanol and biofuels are what is promoted.

As for other energy, there's geothermal and solar heating, wind power. We could put a wind farm out in the ocean that could generate a ton of electricity.

In the state of Maine, people are turning more and more toward alternative energy such as putting wind turbines on their property and having solar and geothermal heating setup for houses just because 90% of the state's households heat with oil. And with the winters we have, it's literally going to be choosing food or heat for some families...