Official Political (Republican/Democrat) Debate Thread

[BigRog]

I meant to say winning. I apologize about that raptor.

[redsox982]

I think it sucks that the U.S. is working on a two-party system that was explicity opposed by the founding fathers.

Power shifts every 8-12 years but it is not enough to patch up the damage done.

McCain seemed like an okay candidate even to us liberals, until he started playing the religon game. His aggresive military strategy also would want to reinstate the draft which scares me to hell!

Any thoughts?

[piratesmvp04]

The last 8 years have called into question my belief in the conservative interest in the constitution. Since you questioned my belief that tying someone down and pouring water down their throats until they think they're drowning is torture, pardon my misunderstanding.

Well, there we have it. Have someone you love and care about be the victim of being forced to have sex against their will, and the psychological trauma associated with it for months and years afterwards, and it's a different consideration.

It's not a matter of convenience, it's a matter of providing a proper life for a child. I'm all for not punishing people who have done nothing wrong, and I don't think a married couple struggling to make ends meet, who have a broken condom, is in a position to raise a child. If, that is, they don't believe they are.

Absolutely. Considering the horrible excuses for parenting on every level, more kids without parenting isn't going to help anything. What I would personally rather have is federally subsidized contraception and sex-ed classes, both of which were slashed by the Bush Administration. Then, substantial tax breaks/benefits for the first child born, as a disincentive for having more than one child.

I guess this is an issue we're never going to agree on. We'll have to agree to disagree. But I'm little surprsied you plainly said 'yes' to my question if you were okay with killin someone to benefit another. I didn't expect that straightforward answer.

I just want to make one more point I didn't address, and feel free to answer on it. You said you thought I supported the torture of innocent people, and you have clearly stated your opposition to it, and rightfully so. But, you at the same time support the killing of innocent people. Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds like a double-standard to me.

[Sean O]

I guess this is an issue we're never going to agree on. We'll have to agree to disagree. But I'm little surprsied you plainly said 'yes' to my question if you were okay with killin someone to benefit another. I didn't expect that straightforward answer.

I don't consider a poorly formed sack of sinew and bone to be a human being.

I just want to make one more point I didn't address, and feel free to answer on it. You said you thought I supported the torture of innocent people, and you have clearly stated your opposition to it, and rightfully so. But, you at the same time support the killing of innocent people. Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds like a double-standard to me.

Once again, fetuses aren't people, they're the potentiality for humanity. Still, I'd love to hear your plan for how you'll make life easier for the rape victim forced to have a child she doesn't want, that she has through no fault of her own.

Because lord knows coathanger sales will go through the roof if Roe v. Wade is overturned. Not everyone can fly around for 8 hours trying to miscarry after the water breaks.

[HardcoreLegend]

I don't consider a poorly formed sack of sinew and bone to be a human being.

Once again, fetuses aren't people, they're the potentiality for humanity. Still, I'd love to hear your plan for how you'll make life easier for the rape victim forced to have a child she doesn't want, that she has through no fault of her own.

Because lord knows coathanger sales will go through the roof if Roe v. Wade is overturned. Not everyone can fly around for 8 hours trying to miscarry after the water breaks.

Plan B makes unwanted, yet known pregnancies practically a thing of the past.

If you are raped and take Plan B that next day, you have no more than a 7% chance of actually getting pregnant. That is on top of that 1% chance you actually have of getting raped on the exact day that you are ovulating.

[Sean O]

Plan B makes unwanted, yet known pregnancies practically a thing of the past.

If you are raped and take Plan B that next day, you have no more than a 7% chance of actually getting pregnant. That is on top of that 1% chance you actually have of getting raped on the exact day that you are ovulating.

BUT ZOMG YOU'RE KILLING THE BABY

How many rape victims are too ashamed or afraid to go to the hospita/authorities? Using this as an excuse just doesn't fly.

[RaptorQuiz]

BUT ZOMG YOU'RE KILLING THE BABY

How many rape victims are too ashamed or afraid to go to the hospita/authorities? Using this as an excuse just doesn't fly.

Wait, what?

They're too ashamed to go get (E)mergency ©ontraception but they'll go to all the trouble of carrying it for a while and THEN get an abortion?

That makes no sense to me.

[Sean O]

Wait, what?

They're too ashamed to go get (E)mergency ©ontraception but they'll go to all the trouble of carrying it for a while and THEN get an abortion?

That makes no sense to me.

What do you mean carrying it for a while? Are rape babies known immediately to the mother/victim, as opposed to every other pregnancy? My guess is, when the rape victim finds out she's pregnant, while she's dealing with the emotional and physical effects of the attack, she wants to abort that kid pretty quickly.

Once again, I ask, have any of you ever been close to a victim of sexual assault?

[RaptorQuiz]

Once again, I ask, have any of you ever been close to a victim of sexual assault?

Yes.

My best friend was raped while we were in college. I spent a lot of time in court for what I did to the attacker.

Two of my ex-girlfriends were raped.

Another ex-girlfriend was repeatedly molested as a child by a relative.

And I think you're missing the point of E.C. If a woman is raped, she knows immediately she had unprotected sex. This is the same (in respect to risk-of-pregnancy) as if you're having consensual sex without protection, or if a condom breaks, etc, etc. You don't know if you're going to become pregnant - but you certainly know the possibility/risk is there.

The Morning-After Pill / Plan B / E.C. / etc is a precautionary measure, to be taken asap after unprotected sex.

And I also think I should let you know that I do not share the typical Republican view of abortion. I happen to agree with the concept of rape victims having access to this procedure. Sadly, I also don't think that's going to work.

Let me try to quickly explain why. Abortion is abused. Too many young girls are beginning to use it in lieu of birth control. That is unacceptable (in my opinion). Abortion should not be an option as an out for poor life-planning.

In the case of rape, I *do* think it should be an option.

BUT - if you only offer it in case of rape, now girls will begin accusing young men who they had consensual sex with, as being rapists, so they can have an abortion.

So - as often happens - those who abuse privilidges, ruin it for everyone.

So, then, is abortion going to be appropriate only in cases where it would endager the mother's life? Hopefully there's no way to FORCE the pregnancy to become dangerous to the mother, so abortion could be abused in that way as well.

My feelings on abortion aren't rooted in a bible or in a party-afiliation. They are rooted in simple opinion of the concept.

I am not of the typical opinion on this one as most Republicans. I am not strictly-against abortion. I am for it in a very limited set of conditions. Unfortunately, I believe it is impractical if not impossible to actually implement it in a limited fashion, as I would want it to be (as described above). THAT is my problem with the procedure - which may be drastically different than HL, or many other Republicans.

[Sean O]

Let me try to quickly explain why. Abortion is abused. Too many young girls are beginning to use it in lieu of birth control. That is unacceptable (in my opinion). Abortion should not be an option as an out for poor life-planning.

I'm with you there, but shouldn't we make birth control readily available, along with sex education? Abstinence "education" is a dumb crock of bull, as it only leads to the spread of STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Instead, we attack the problem by making contraceptives readily available and cheap, rather than going the "hear no evil, see no evil" route.

[RaptorQuiz]

I'm with you there, but shouldn't we make birth control readily available, along with sex education? Abstinence "education" is a dumb crock of bull, as it only leads to the spread of STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Instead, we attack the problem by making contraceptives readily available and cheap, rather than going the "hear no evil, see no evil" route.

I agree 100% that birth control should be readily available, as well as appropriate sex-education.

I don't think abstinence education is bad, but I don't think it can be the only message out there.

For instance - I don't mind if the concept of "creationism" is taught in schools, but it had better be in concert with "evolution" as well (and vice-versa). I am all for giving our children the MOST and BEST information available for them to make the most informed decisions they can.

I am, however, at a loss as to what age I really feel sex-ed should start, and what age easily-accessible birth control should be offered as well. The reason I say that, it is a difficult balance to strike, to find a way to do it where you're preparing them for the realities of life, but not outright ENCOURAGING them to have sex at a certain age, etc etc.

Lots of things to think about. :hmph:

[Sean O]

For instance - I don't mind if the concept of "creationism" is taught in schools, but it had better be in concert with "evolution" as well (and vice-versa). I am all for giving our children the MOST and BEST information available for them to make the most informed decisions they can.

Then, why not the ancient greek account of creation? or those of Native Americans? or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or Buddhist/Hindu/Taoism?

There is only one with any scientific basis, and as an institution of learning, this should be the only one presented.

[bhiggy1961]

I don't like the idea of the govt./school deciding on when it's ok for kids to have birth control. I also don't agree with the school supplying contraceptives. This is the parents duty. As parents we are responsible for our kids until they are 18, so if we have the responsibility, we should also have the say on this matter. Parental notification should take place in all cases. Just remember it doesn't take a village to raise a kid. It takes 2 parents.

[RaptorQuiz]

Then, why not the ancient greek account of creation? or those of Native Americans? or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Or Buddhist/Hindu/Taoism?

There is only one with any scientific basis, and as an institution of learning, this should be the only one presented.

Aside from this Spaghetti Monster (which kind of sounds awesome), I learned about all of these things. In college. In my series of Exploring Religion classes.

As for me - I am an "evolutionist," because I am a believer in a thing called "science" and "proof." I am also a Christian.

There are Christians out there that wouldn't call me a very good Christian, because of my beliefs on things such as abortion and evolution. I live with that. I construct my religious beliefs around those things that make sense to ME, on a personal ("spiritual," if you will) level.

As for other things, one of my majors was "Computer Science." That makes me a scientist as well (lol).

I'm a Republican Christian who believes in evolution and the utility of abortion in limited cases. I have a confusing set of views that can often seem to be at odds with eachother. This is probably why my hair is turning gray at age 27 and I yell at the dog so much. :roll:

[HardcoreLegend]

BUT ZOMG YOU'RE KILLING THE BABY

How many rape victims are too ashamed or afraid to go to the hospita/authorities? Using this as an excuse just doesn't fly.

Well, here in the 21st century, we can get EC from the pharmacy. No doctor need be involved.

[RaptorQuiz]

Well, here in the 21st century, we can get EC from the pharmacy. No doctor need be involved.

I have been w/ 3 separate girlfriends to go get EC (one of them twice). (3 times it was a broken condom, 1 time it was a bad decision).

Three times it was from Planned Parenthood. One time it was from her doctor, who then told her to go to Planned Parenthood (lol).

The entire process was about 15 minutes. Of course, in all 4 instances, the girl was over 18, so I am unfamiliar with what would happen if the girl was underage.

[Sean O]

Well, here in the 21st century, we can get EC from the pharmacy. No doctor need be involved.

You weren't hugged much as a child, were you?

[Sean O]

Aside from this Spaghetti Monster (which kind of sounds awesome), I learned about all of these things. In college. In my series of Exploring Religion classes.

Right, but that's not really what's at issue here. There is a distinct difference between college, where you enroll in your own classes, and a state-mandated public education. As you agree, there is scientific evidence for evolution, while there is none for creationism.

This isn't about banning certain discussions from school, since no discussion should ever be off-limits to a curious student. But it is about whether the school board wants to teach something based in scientific reality or not. Because, apart from the pure objective reality of the situation, there is no reason to believe that the Christian, Muslim, Pastafarian or Native Americans were more right or wrong than the other.

[RaptorQuiz]

Pastafarian

:lmao: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sean O]

:lmao: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, you've had 3 broken condoms? Do you only use ones you find on the street?

[RaptorQuiz]

Dude, you've had 3 broken condoms? Do you only use ones you find on the street?

I was using the term "broken" a bit liberally.

1 actually broke. The other 2...

Good lord, we are rapidly getting into the (t)oo (m)uch (i)nformation realm.

Let's just say, there was reason for concern, and it was due to "containment failure."

[redsox982]

You weren't hugged much as a child, were you?

Lol

Anyway, as much as I do not agree with many of Raptor's views, he does make a valid point about abortion. Abortion should be at the disposal of those who REALLY need it

[Gordo]

And you are the one who gets to decide the original meaning and definition of feminism? That's laughable.

Laughable? Just look into it. Just because I don't go on long-winded soap boxes doesn't make the statement anyless credible.

Take a breath.

[HardcoreLegend]

You weren't hugged much as a child, were you?

I guess this is the thread for respectful discussion (unless you are a moderator).

I'm sorry you are out of touch with the realities of sex today, but don't take out your ignorance on me.

[Sean O]

I guess this is the thread for respectful discussion (unless you are a moderator).

I'm sorry you are out of touch with the realities of sex today, but don't take out your ignorance on me.

Smile, HCL, smile. I've never seen anyone so constantly unhappy around this site. Even RQ and I are able to joke around sometimes.