Official Political (Republican/Democrat) Debate Thread

[Gordo]

All he has to do is just clean up the economy by balancing the budget and create jobs. He has his work ahead of him, but the democrats have never had problems with the economy, or on fixing the economy in general.

1. Government, even how idealogically ours should be run, does not create jobs and fix the economy. Our government was designed with the ideology to stay out of society's way to flourish on its' own. Basically, that's why we literally needed to escape from England.

2. Liberal ideologies (American or not) are not designed to promote independence and self-sufficiency. Social programs do not work no matter how much money you throw at them. Not even our public school system at large runs efficiently because it is part of a large government machine.

[DeuceBlades]

1. Government, even how idealogically ours should be run, does not create jobs and fix the economy. Our government was designed with the ideology to stay out of society's way to flourish on its' own. Basically, that's why we literally needed to escape from England.

2. Liberal ideologies (American or not) are not designed to promote independence and self-sufficiency. Social programs do not work no matter how much money you throw at them. Not even our public school system at large runs efficiently because it is part of a large government machine.

where did you get all of that, out of what I said?? Presidential hopefuls run on the pretext of job creation and the economy. Why read into what I wrote?

We needed to escape England for a host of reason. Most importantly the fact that we created our own money, and England despised it. Stating we had to use British money from the British central bank with the interest put on it. Thats the main reason we went to war. The English didnt want us to have financial independance.

http://ahp.gatech.edu/currency_act_1764.html

[Gordo]

where did you get all of that, out of what I said?? Presidential hopefuls run on the pretext of job creation and the economy. Why read into what I wrote?

Sorry....didn't realize you were being sarcastic, of sorts. I agree. They do. But it's the manner in which they frame it.

[DeuceBlades]

Sorry....didn't realize you were being sarcastic, of sorts. I agree. They do. But it's the manner in which they frame it.

That I do agree with. The best way to determine it, is how they describe their plan to do it. As far fetched as some sound, Obama has a solid plan. I didnt even hear McCain say how he was gonna do it.

[krawhitham]

Well Congratulations to ALL the Obama-backers (many of which are Bush bashers), your man WON! Unlike the Hollywood elites, I don't hear any conservatives threatening to leave the country.

Freeper's are

[Sean O]

Freeper's are

Can we collect a fund to help them go? I'd be in for $20.

[Gordo]

Obama has a solid plan. I didnt even hear McCain say how he was gonna do it.

That remains to be seen. Again, if you believe Obama's plan to more heavily tax the heavily taxed upper class and profiting businesses (of which I am neither) as part of the answer, that will simply not work. It will only tie hands and bind opportunity and growth. BUT.... if you are in agreement with this and you make more than the median income (somewhere in the 40 K's), you should be more than happy to freely give up your portion to someone who does not. So, honestly, conservative or liberal, if you right now make around 60-70K, would you be willing to give up about 25K to the government to make things more equitable and right the ship? I seriously doubt it.

[DeuceBlades]

Can we collect a fund to help them go? I'd be in for $20.

I second it....you know whats funny? Its how the right are justifying everything today. Eventually they will run out of stuff to say and move on. This election was based on race, plain and simple. The right didnt know how to sway latino and black voters, nor could they sway the 18-29 year olds. That cost them the election. Republicans, you better wake up, because whites will be the minority in a few short years. Not saying that to be racist, because I am white. Im saying it because its a fact.

[Sean O]

That remains to be seen. Again, if you believe Obama's plan to more heavily tax the heavily taxed upper class and profiting businesses (of which I am neither) as part of the answer, that will simply not work.

He's bringing it back to pre-Bush levels, that's not revolutionary.

It will only tie hands and bind opportunity and growth.

It's putting more money into the average American's pockets. I don't necessarily agree with the tax cuts, at least until PAYGO is reinstated, but it's better than the McCain plan that disproportionately benefits the rich.

BUT.... if you are in agreement with this and you make more than the median income (somewhere in the 40 K's), you should be more than happy to freely give up your portion to someone who does not. So, honestly, conservative or liberal, if you right now make around 60-70K, would you be willing to give up about 25K to the government to make things more equitable and right the ship? I seriously doubt it.

You're just plain wrong dude. You need to do some research from non-partisan tax analysis.

[Gordo]

Redistribution of the wealth is not capitalism.... it's socialism/Marxism. I don't need to look up anything to tell me that, "dude".

Tell you what.... you get back to me the second you make 251,000 in a year. Then, if paying $68,900 in taxes wouldn't be enough for you (http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=164272,00.html), let me know. If you're a business owner, and paying more than that in taxes is what you think would help the sinking economy VS. being taxed half of that and giving someone a job, let me know.

[DeuceBlades]

Well daflyboys, let me educate you. The rich have been getting taxed the same high tax for hundreds of years. This wont change. Tax hike will be about the same as it was when Clinton left office. This is looking pretty similar to Clintons economic plan. I hope the he11 it is, because we had a surplus when Clinton left. I think Clinton knew something about economics. Bush 1 and 2 screwed this country up, and now we are paying for it. Clinton bailed out senior, and now Obama has to bail out junior. I wish people would research more and talk less about issues in which they know nothing of. Most of you are talking through your butts, especially on Socialism and Marxism. Get over it already. Obama hasnt even been in office yet, and most of you have made his agenda for him. Let him pick his cabinet, and let him serve his 4 years. Let history determine how we judge him, not you sore losing McCain backers. If you want anyone to blame, blame his people who ran his campaign. Blame that dimwit running mate too. She turned on him like a rabid dog. All she was doing was making herself look good for 2012. I hope she knows that Obama and Hilary will be her competition. Hilary would eat Palin for lunch. She needs to just go away.

Redistribution of the wealth is not capitalism.... it's socialism/Marxism. I don't need to look up anything to tell me that, "dude".

Tell you what.... you get back to me the second you make 251,000 in a year. Then, if paying $68,900 in taxes wouldn't be enough for you (http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=164272,00.html), let me know. If you're a business owner, and paying more than that in taxes is what you think would help the sinking economy VS. being taxed half of that and giving someone a job, let me know.

you really dont get it do you? Your buisness can make as much as it wants. Most small buisness owners dont clear 250,000 after payroll and bills. Thats what Obama is talking about. You have to clear over 250,000 dollars after payroll and bills. Try watching a debate sometime.

One of my accounts I cut grass for, he owns a small buisness. Its a seal buisness for small seals and gaskets. He has about 25 employees and a certain amount of bills and medical insurance. He told me that even after payroll, he isnt even close to 250,000 dollars. Hes close to 100,000, give or take 10 grand. He will get the tax breaks to have the opportunity to hire a few more guys. Hed love to hire 4 or 5 more people, but he doesnt have the money to do it, because of cutbacks, due to Bush policies.

But on the other hand, Obama is gonna be handcuffed. Alot of things are gonna happen to him in the first year to two years. Alot of setbacks are gonna happen, but the republicans will blame Obama because he wouldnt have done anything to improve the situation. Its almost an inevitable conclusion. Heres what is gonna happen, and its a fact of life -

* The deficit will be more than $1 trillion a year for several years

* The country needs a massive new fiscal stimulus

* The housing market will continue to decline through at least 2010

* Interest rates and taxes will eventually have to rise (after the economy stabilizes)

* Weak corporations have to be allowed to fail

* Millions of homeowners will lose their house

* Unemployment will probably rise to 10%

* The government simply cannot "bail the country out" -- not because it lacks the will, but because it lacks the power

So by enlarge, the whole picture looks bleak for the early going. These are the hick-ups we will have to deal with. You can thank George Bush on his way out the door, as he goes fishing with his billionaire buddy Cheney. In short, Obama needs to acknowedge reality, erring on the side of overstating the problems and challenges, and he needs to prepare the country for several tough years. Because if he doesn't, within six months of his taking office, the country will have forgotten all about the prior administration and will instead be blaming everything on him.

[LupeFiasco]

I hope the republicans blame Hussein. Thats all the democrats did to Bush.

[vbprogjoe]

Freeper's are

What the hell is a freeper, and what part of my statement are you referring to, Hollywood or Conservative???

Thanks,

--- vbprogjoe

[JoeBlo]

Lessons we WILL learn the hard way AGAIN.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." --Winston Churchill

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." -Winston Churchill

[JoeBlo]

Bar Stool Economics

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers, he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’ They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

‘I only got a dollar out of the $20?, declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’

‘Yeah, that’s right’, exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!’

‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’

‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

[JoeBlo]

"Republicans, you better wake up, because whites will be the minority in a few short years. Not saying that to be racist, because I am white. Im saying it because its a fact."

I could be mistaken but I believe the country is still 70% White. As far as left vs right goes we've seen this routine before, politics is cyclical. I'd guess Carter years again, same situation where Carter made a bad economy WORSE like Obama will do if he implements his agenda, there'll be a Republican in the WH in four years. I tried telling you kids the country, the economy works best under divided government as in the Clinton years. We'll just relearn the lesson history has already taught us time and again. We Americans are stupid that way, probably something to do with schools dumbing us down.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." --Winston Churchill

[vbprogjoe]

"Republicans, you better wake up, because whites will be the minority in a few short years. Not saying that to be racist, because I am white. Im saying it because its a fact."

I could be mistaken but I believe the country is still 70% White. As far as left vs right goes we've seen this routine before, politics is cyclical. I'd guess Carter years again, same situation where Carter made a bad economy WORSE like Obama will do if he implements his agenda, there'll be a Republican in the WH in four years. I tried telling you kids the country, the economy works best under divided government as in the Clinton years. We'll just relearn the lesson history has already taught us time and again. We Americans are stupid that way, probably something to do with schools dumbing us down.

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." --Winston Churchill

Well said, the Joe's are on FIRE baby, we are on FIRE!!!

Sincerely,

*** vbprogjoe (Joe W.) 8)

[Kayxero]

*rolls eyes*

It seems that Repubs want trhe new administration to fail just so they can have their conservative leaders back in power. Could we just wait and see how the first couple of years go. Sheesh.

Its almost as silly as the comments I read on the AOL board blaming obama for this weeks going on in the stock market, when hes not even in power yet.

And the country is only 70% white based on the census. There are many immigrants and Americans as well who do not participate in the census. So if anything in a couple decades whites may only be a plurality. Basically a majority by lesser number. With Asians at 10% and Hispanics at almost 20% given that they are the majority influx of immigrants each year.

Us brown folk may stay around that 11 to 14% lol

[Gordo]

*rolls eyes*

It seems that Repubs want trhe new administration to fail just so they can have their conservative leaders back in power. Could we just wait and see how the first couple of years go. Sheesh.

Isn't that the idea? It's always a battle of principles....regardless of whether your party practices them once in power or not.

Its almost as silly as the comments I read on the AOL board blaming obama for this weeks going on in the stock market, when hes not even in power yet.

It's not that silly. Since the market is somewhat about anticipation and prediction, my understanding is that investors are nervous about Obama's strategies and/or a too heavily weighted liberal government (and, in all fairness, a heavily weighted conservative government when that happens).

And the country is only 70% white based on the census. There are many immigrants and Americans as well who do not participate in the census. So if anything in a couple decades whites may only be a plurality. Basically a majority by lesser number. With Asians at 10% and Hispanics at almost 20% given that they are the majority influx of immigrants each year.

Us brown folk may stay around that 11 to 14% lol

More like 80%. But....why should this matter? I mean, everyone is touting that this election was not about race, but about change. Riiiiiiight?? This leads me to ask in all sincerity. Why is Obama being championed as the first Black president and not the first bi-racial president? Ultra-idealistically speaking, wouldn't this be an opportunity to help mend race relations by emphasizing this? Instead, the media (and probably society at large) is showing the race card, which brings the threat of divisiveness. Doesn't matter, everyone knows Clinton was our first Black Prez any way...lol.

Wait....do I have to say "brown folk" now? I was just getting used to African American! lol (before anyone jumps on me, infoplease.com referenced that more "Brown Folk" actually preferred the term "Black" to "African American").

[JJ1012]

Hey guys i just heard that everything is gonna be alright...

have you ever heard of a nigger keeping the same job for 4 years!

[RaptorQuiz]

Hey guys i just heard that everything is gonna be alright...

have you ever heard of a nigger keeping the same job for 4 years!

Banned.

[vbprogjoe]

*rolls eyes*

It seems that Repubs want trhe new administration to fail just so they can have their conservative leaders back in power. Could we just wait and see how the first couple of years go. Sheesh.

Its almost as silly as the comments I read on the AOL board blaming obama for this weeks going on in the stock market, when hes not even in power yet.

And the country is only 70% white based on the census. There are many immigrants and Americans as well who do not participate in the census. So if anything in a couple decades whites may only be a plurality. Basically a majority by lesser number. With Asians at 10% and Hispanics at almost 20% given that they are the majority influx of immigrants each year.

Us brown folk may stay around that 11 to 14% lol

I don't know about others, as I can ONLY speak for myself, but I'll give Obama a chance. He'll be my president come January 20, 2009. All I'm saying is I have very little hope for his administration, and thus very little trust in his policies and agenda. However, I'll still give him a chance, and I hope for the best under him, because the good of the nation is at stake (economically and politically). That is all that I've been saying...

Thanks Sincerely,

--- vbprogjoe (Joe W.) :yeah:

[AddisonClark]

I don't know about others, as I can ONLY speak for myself, but I'll give Obama a chance. He'll be my president come January 20, 2009. All I'm saying is I have very little hope for his administration, and thus very little trust in his policies and agenda. However, I'll still give him a chance, and I hope for the best under him, because the good of the nation is at stake (economically and politically). That is all that I've been saying...

Thanks Sincerely,

--- vbprogjoe (Joe W.) :yeah:

Well thank God for that, Obama has stated publicly several times that he and his staff were waiting with bated breath for vbporgjoe's support before moving on with major policy decisions.

Finally, our country can move forward!

[Gordo]

Well thank God for that, Obama has stated publicly several times that he and his staff were waiting with bated breath for vbporgjoe's support before moving on with major policy decisions.

Finally, our country can move forward!

Good thing.... vbporgjoe probably has more experience.

[Kayxero]

Banned.

Thanks for silencing the troll =).

Gota love cowardly internet racists who never make insults in public =/