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[RaptorQuiz]

Keeping Things Civil

Afterword to the novel Empire

by Orson Scott Card

The originating premise of this novel did not come from me. Donald Mustard and his partners in Chair Entertainment had the idea for an entertainment franchise called Empire about a near-future American civil war. When I joined the project to create a work of fiction based on that premise, my first order of business was to come up with a plausible way that such an event might come about.

It was, sadly enough, all too easy.

Because we haven't had a civil war in the past fourteen decades, people think we can't have one now. Where is the geographic clarity of the Mason-Dixon line? When you look at the red-state blue-state division in the past few elections, you get a false impression. The real division is urban, academic, and high-tech counties versus suburban, rural, and conservative Christian counties. How could such widely scattered "blue" centers and such centerless "red" populations ever act in concert?

Geography aside, however, we have never been so evenly divided with such hateful rhetoric since the years leading up to the Civil War of the 1860s. Because the national media elite are so uniformly progressive, we keep hearing (in the elite media) about the rhetorical excesses of the "extreme right." To hear the same media, there is no "extreme left," just the occasional progressive who says things he or she shouldn't.

But any rational observer has to see that the Left and Right in America are screaming the most vile accusations at each other all the time. We are fully polarized -- if you accept one idea that sounds like it belongs to either the blue or the red, you are assumed -- nay, required -- to espouse the entire rest of the package, even though there is no reason why supporting the war against terrorism should imply you're in favor of banning all abortions and against restricting the availability of firearms; no reason why being in favor of keeping government-imposed limits on the free market should imply you also are in favor of giving legal status to homosexual couples and against building nuclear reactors. These issues are not remotely related, and yet if you hold any of one group's views, you are hated by the other group as if you believed them all; and if you hold most of one group's views, but not all, you are treated as if you were a traitor for deviating even slightly from the party line.

It goes deeper than this, however. A good working definition of fanaticism is that you are so convinced of your views and policies that you are sure anyone who opposes them must either be stupid and deceived or have some ulterior motive. We are today a nation where almost everyone in the public eye displays fanaticism with every utterance.

It is part of human nature to regard as sane those people who share the worldview of the majority of society. Somehow, though, we have managed to divide ourselves into two different, mutually exclusive sanities. The people in each society reinforce each other in madness, believing unsubstantiated ideas that are often contradicted not only by each other but also by whatever objective evidence exists on the subject. Instead of having an ever-adapting civilization-wide consensus reality, we have became a nation of insane people able to see the madness only in the other side.

Does this lead, inevitably, to civil war? Of course not -- though it's hardly conducive to stable government or the long-term continuation of democracy. What inevitably arises from such division is the attempt by one group, utterly convinced of its rectitude, to use all coercive forces available to stamp out the opposing views.

Such an effort is, of course, a confession of madness. Suppression of other people's beliefs by force only comes about when you are deeply afraid that your own beliefs are wrong and you are desperate to keep anyone from challenging them. Oh, you may come up with rhetoric about how you are suppressing them for their own good or for the good of others, but people who are confident of their beliefs are content merely to offer and teach, not compel.

The impulse toward coercion takes whatever forms are available. In academia, it consists of the denial of degrees, jobs, or tenure to people with nonconformist opinions. Ironically, the people who are most relentless in eliminating competing ideas congratulate themselves on their tolerance and diversity. In most situations, it is less formal, consisting of shunning -- but the shunning usually has teeth in it. Did Mel Gibson, when in his cups, say something that reflects his upbringing in an anti-Semitic household? Then he is to be shunned -- which in Hollywood will mean he can never be considered for an Oscar and will have a much harder time getting prestige, as opposed to money, roles.

It has happened to me, repeatedly, from both the Left and the Right. It is never enough to disagree with me -- I must be banned from speaking at a particular convention or campus; my writings should be boycotted; anything that will punish me for my noncompliance and, if possible, impoverish me and my family.

So virulent are these responses -- again, from both the Left and the Right -- that I believe it is only a short step to the attempt to use the power of the state to enforce one's views. On the right we have attempts to use the government to punish flag burners and to enforce state-sponsored praying. On the left, we have a ban on free speech and peaceable public assembly in front of abortion clinics and the attempt to use the power of the state to force the acceptance of homosexual relationships as equal to marriages. Each side feels absolutely justified in compelling others to accept their views.

It is puritanism, not in its separatist form, desiring to live by themselves by their own rules, but in its Cromwellian form, using the power of the state to enforce the dicta of one group throughout the wider society, by force rather than persuasion.

This despite the historical fact that the civilization that has created more prosperity and freedom for more people than ever before is one based on tolerance and pluralism, and that attempts to force one religion (theistic or atheistic) on the rest of a nation or the world inevitably lead to misery, poverty, and, usually, conflict.

Yet we seem only able to see the negative effects of coercion caused by the other team. Progressives see the danger of allowing fanatical religions (which, by some definitions, means "all of them") to have control of government -- they need only point to Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Taliban, or, in a more general and milder sense, the entire Muslim world, which is oppressed precisely to the degree that Islam is enforced as the state religion.

Conservatives, on the other hand, see the danger of allowing fanatical atheistic religions to have control of government, pointing to Nazi Germany and all Communist nations as obvious examples of political utopianism run amok.

Yet neither side can see any connection between their own fanaticism and the historical examples that might apply to them. People insisting on a Christian America simply cannot comprehend that others view them as the Taliban-in-waiting; those who insist on progressive exclusivism in America are outraged at any comparison between them and Communist totalitarianism. Even as they shun or fire or deny tenure to those who disagree with them, everybody thinks it's the other guy who would be the oppressor, while our side would simply "set things to rights."

Rarely do people set out to start a civil war. Invariably, when such wars break out both sides consider themselves to be the aggrieved ones. Right now in America, even though the Left has control of all the institutions of cultural power and prestige -- universities, movies, literary publishing, mainstream journalism-- as well as the federal courts, they feel themselves oppressed and threatened by traditional religion and conservatism. And even though the Right controls both houses of Congress and the presidency, as well as having ample outlets for their views in nontraditional media and an ever-increasing dominance over American religious and economic life, they feel themselves oppressed and threatened by the cultural dominance of the Left.

And they are threatened, just as they are also threatening, because nobody is willing to accept the simple idea that someone can disagree with their group and still be a decent human being worthy of respect.

Can it lead to war?

Very simply, yes. The moment one group feels itself so aggrieved that it uses either its own weapons or the weapons of the state to "prevent" the other side from bringing about its supposed "evil" designs, then that other side will have no choice but to take up arms against them. Both sides will believe the other to be the instigator.

The vast majority of people will be horrified -- but they will also be mobilized whether they like it or not.

It's the lesson of Yugoslavia and Rwanda. If you were a Tutsi just before the Rwandan holocaust who did not hate Hutus, who married a Hutu, who hired Hutus or taught school to Hutu students, it would not have stopped Hutus from taking machetes to you and your family. You would have had only two choices: to die or to take up arms against Hutus, whether you had previously hated them or not.

But it went further. Knowing they were doing a great evil, the Hutus who conducted the programs also killed any Hutus who were "disloyal" enough to try to oppose taking up arms.

Likewise in Yugoslavia. For political gain, Serbian leaders in the post-Tito government maintained a drumbeat of Serbian manifest-destiny propaganda, which openly demonized Croatian and Muslim people as a threat to good Serbs. When Serbs in Bosnia took up arms to "protect themselves" from being ruled by a Muslim majority -- and were sponsored and backed by the Serbian government -- what choice did a Bosnian Muslim have but to take up arms in self-defense? Thus both sides claimed to be acting in self-defense, and in short order, they were.

And as both Rwanda and Bosnia proved, clear geographical divisions are not required in order to have brutal, bloody civil wars. All that is required is that both sides come to believe that if they do not take up arms, the other side will destroy them.

In America today, we are complacent in our belief that it can't happen here. We forget that America is not an ethnic nation, where ancient ties of blood can bind people together despite differences. We are created by ideology; ideas are our only connection. And because today we have discarded the free marketplace of ideas and have polarized ourselves into two equally insane ideologies, so that each side can, with perfect accuracy, brand the other side as madmen, we are ripe for that next step, to take preventive action to keep the other side from seizing power and oppressing our side.

The examples are -- or should be -- obvious. That we are generally oblivious to the excesses of our own side merely demonstrates how close we already are to a paroxysm of self-destruction.

We are waiting for Fort Sumter.

I hope it doesn't come.

Meanwhile, however, there is this novel, in which I try to show characters who struggle to keep from falling into the insanity -- yet who also try to prevent other people's insanity from destroying America. This book is fiction. It is entertainment. I do not believe a new American civil war is inevitable; and if it did happen, I do not believe it would necessarily take the form I show in this book, politically or militarily. Since the war depicted in these pages has not happened, I am certainly not declaring either side in our polarized public life guilty of causing it. I only say that for the purposes of this story, we have this set of causes; in the real world, if we should ever be so stupid as to allow a civil war to happen again, we would obviously have a different set of specific causes.

We live in a time when people like me, who do not wish to choose either camp's ridiculous, inconsistent, unrelated ideology, are being forced to choose -- and to take one whole absurd package or the other.

We live in a time when moderates are treated worse than extremists, being punished as if they were more fanatical than the actual fanatics.

We live in a time when lies are preferred to the truth and truths are called lies, when opponents are assumed to have the worst conceivable motives and treated accordingly, and when we reach immediately for coercion without even bothering to find out what those who disagree with us are actually saying.

In short, we are creating for ourselves a new dark age -- the darkness of blinders we voluntarily wear, and which, if we do not take them off and see each other as human beings with legitimate, virtuous concerns, will lead us to tragedies whose cost we will bear for generations.

Or, maybe, we can just calm down and stop thinking that our own ideas are so precious that we must never give an inch to accommodate the heartfelt beliefs of others.

How can we accomplish that? It begins by scorning the voices of extremism from the camp we are aligned with. Democrats and Republicans must renounce the screamers and haters from their own side instead of continuing to embrace them and denouncing only the screamers from the opposing camp. We must moderate ourselves instead of insisting on moderating the other guy while keeping our own fanaticism alive.

In the long run, the great mass of people who simply want to get on with their lives can shape a peaceful future. But it requires that they actively pursue moderation and reject extremism on every side, and not just on one. Because it is precisely those ordinary people, who don't even care all that much about the issues, who will end up suffering the most from any conflict that might arise.

[DeuceBlades]

Holy crap that was long Raptor

All I have to say is, I dont think its fanaticism. I just think its a scaredness of the Reps in accepting a Black as president. They tried so hard to paint him as this evil candidate. If his name was "Billy Bob Obama" and he was white, he would have won by a huge margin. But because he is mixed, he gets treated like this. McCain disappointed me when he had the chance to squash the talk of Arab and Muslim sterotyping. But I wouldnt expect anything less from the republican party. Thats whats wrong with this country. People fear race. They couldnt find anything wrong with Obama, so they tore him down with whatever they could find. Turns out, what they found was linked back to McCain as well, so what did they really prove? All they had was a whacked out preacher in the end, so what. It was easy to see through that propaganda. Another media distortion taken to extremes.

Media will be the downfall of this country. That and the banking system.

Im just happy the right candidate won. It was way to easy to decide. If it was McCain of 15 years ago, I think he would have won. The fact is, hes old, he nominated Palin and he ran a nasty campaign. Thats what turned people off.

First order of buisness, close GITMO and get out of Iraq. Our UN mandate is almost up in Iraq, and i dont think the Iraqis will extend it. That will be the smartest thing they could do. The war is won, we invade, toppled Hussein and achieved Iraqi freedom. They can govern themselves without a military base. This intervention policy we have as a country needs to stop. We dont need to be building bases in every country.

[LupeFiasco]

I just want to say this: When Obama had his election speech, he referranced McCain and people applauded. When McCain referred to Obama, people jeered and booed. I dont know, it kind of summed up the republican party IMO. Racist and warmongering.

Blades, you can't be serious. We just lost the electon and everyone was angry. I can guarentee if the election went the other way, the dems would boo Obama if he referenced McCain. You sum up the democrat party as an asshole. The dems now control everything so don't blame the republicans now when stuff starts going wrong. Get ready for an awful presidency. Just get off the forums and go start another dynasty.

[DeuceBlades]

Blades, you can't be serious. We just lost the electon and everyone was angry. I can guarentee if the election went the other way, the dems would boo Obama if he referenced McCain. You sum up the democrat party as an ****. The dems now control everything so don't blame the republicans now when stuff starts going wrong. Get ready for an awful presidency. Just get off the forums and go start another dynasty.

Im glad you can see the future Lupe. Thats so nearsighted. There was no excuse for the way they responded. They acted that way the entire time leading up to the election. It didnt just happen yesterday. Face it, the republican party cant stand the fact a black man is president. Look at the south + Kentucky and W.Virginia. You cant be seriously that naive.

and dont blame the republicans when things go wrong?? lmao it cant get any worse than it is now, thanks to your hero Bush. And keep dynasties out of it, it has no place in this forum. When you have no argument, you bring up my dynasties? are you seriously joking? I rest my case. lots of guys in this thread are for Obama and have spoken out against McCain, and you single me out? Well join the club, because your not the only one who has.

sad part is, I used to be republican until I opened my eyes and saw the truth. I wish I could have gone back and voted for Gore, but thats neither here nor there. Now I decide who is the right candidate at the time for the situation. I think, I study the candidates, and the people they choose as a running mate. I study the issues, the problems we are facing at the present time.

Lets face it, it doesnt take a freak'n genius to pick up a phone and call the pentagon and tell them to get ready for war. The presidency means alot more than that. Any president can protect you. It takes intelligence to get the country turned around after its been dragged through the proverbial mud the last 8 years. Our image is in ruins worldwide, and Im sorry, but world opinion means a whole lot more than you think. Obama is putting together a Bi-Partison cabinet as we speak, so you can say all you want about all Dems, Obama is adding Republicans on as well, so go argue your meaningless jargon somewhere else Lupe.

Dont try to "McCain-Roll" me brotha

SXGi91b8a0M

[align=center]You just got Barack-Rolled[/align]

[Yankee4Life]

Blades, you can't be serious. We just lost the electon and everyone was angry. I can guarentee if the election went the other way, the dems would boo Obama if he referenced McCain. You sum up the democrat party as an ****. The dems now control everything so don't blame the republicans now when stuff starts going wrong. Get ready for an awful presidency. Just get off the forums and go start another dynasty.

Personally I don't give a sh** about your politics or you in particular. It's people like you that make me avoid talking politics in here for these many years that this website has been around.

And why you had to bring up Blades having to start a dynasty in a thread that was about politics is just plain stupid. I mean I know why you did it. The guy said something that hit home to you because it made sense and you didn't want to admit it so the best thing you could think of is to insult him back.

[DeuceBlades]

No matter who won or lost yesterday, we should take pride in the fact that we can be proud Americans today. We elected a Black President for the first time. This is what should be the topic of discussion. To put him down before he has had a chance to show what he can do, doesnt do anyone any justice, and it downgrades the election as a whole. I am proud of what I helped accomplish. Do not downgrade me as a citizen by saying the man I helped elect is gonna fail, or is doomed to fail because you say so.

[piratesmvp04]

No matter who won or lost yesterday, we should take pride in the fact that we can be proud Americans today. We elected a Black President for the first time. This is what should be the topic of discussion. To put him down before he has had a chance to show what he can do, doesnt do anyone any justice, and it downgrades the election as a whole. I am proud of what I helped accomplish. Do not downgrade me as a citizen by saying the man I helped elect is gonna fail, or is doomed to fail because you say so.

That is the right attitude to have, but Obama has promised to enact the Freedom of Choice act in his first 3 days in office, and that has me worried.

[piratesmvp04]

::thumbs down::

what would you want? More wars or a president that wants change in America?

What change do you mean?

Silly, he is going to focus on the REAL problem. Afghanistan and the terrorists hiding in Pakistan. Noone died for nothing. We should of never been in Iraq. If anything we drew our enemies there.

Exactly, and we defeated them there, and that's why we're winning the war on terror. We selected the battleground, they accepted, and they lost. That proves our effectiveness in this war.

[Kccitystar]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=a72fTIofgIng

Like I said, when networks all over the world are reporting nothing but positive remarks for Obama's victory, you know America did the right thing. I love hearing how interested the rest of the world is feeling. I've been watching BBC News all day, trying to get a feel for how the international communities are reacting. It's been really interesting.

It's the first time I've been truly proud of my country in my entire life. It's a wonderful feeling, to see so many people so hopeful for the future and trusting in our democratic process. It's just the polar opposite of the last election. It's really inspiring.

Honestly, did you seriously believe that America was going to vote Republican for 12 straight years after all of this BS going on in the past 8?

[duckdodger215]

No matter who won or lost yesterday, we should take pride in the fact that we can be proud Americans today. We elected a Black President for the first time. This is what should be the topic of discussion. To put him down before he has had a chance to show what he can do, doesnt do anyone any justice, and it downgrades the election as a whole. I am proud of what I helped accomplish. Do not downgrade me as a citizen by saying the man I helped elect is gonna fail, or is doomed to fail because you say so.

This is the exact kind of BS we're gonna have to listen to for who knows how long, now. America tries to get away from the 'race card' yet now it's oh so incredible that someone of a different race is elected. Right along the lines of reverse discrimination.

[piratesmvp04]

This is the exact kind of BS we're gonna have to listen to for who knows how long, now. America tries to get away from the 'race card' yet now it's oh so incredible that someone of a different race is elected. Right along the lines of reverse discrimination.

I understand, but conservatives like you and me need to unite and support our president. Remember that no matter who is in office, the United States is still the United States (at least for now) and our conservative principles are still in existence. We need to reassess where we Republicans stand and enact our own change to appeal to Americans again. But in the meantime, let's recognize the historical significance of this event and work with Obama to bring this country to a better place.

[philthepat]

Thank you for voting in the right man for the job. I know everyone I have spoken to today, and in the past few months here in the UK, is delighted that Obama has won.

Heck if you hadn't voted him in, we could have made him our prime minister! haha

[Kccitystar]

What change do you mean?

Exactly, and we defeated them there, and that's why we're winning the war on terror. We selected the battleground, they accepted, and they lost. That proves our effectiveness in this war.

No we didn't. We fought there for a year or so right after 9/11 but we never caught Bin Laden as Bush promised, and redirected us to Iraq on false evidence...and you know how that story goes. The so-called "War on Terror" was a farce to begin with. Like the war on drugs, a "War on Terror" is an unwinnable, endless war.

There is no winning strategy in an endless war. With respect to the war in Iraq in particular, if history "vindicates" this occupation, history is mentally retarded. It was a lie going in, the declaration of victory was a lie, and the 4-years-and-counting occupation is an unmitigated disaster. No outcome will be worth the cost in lives and dollars. Not to mention, the Iraqi people never asked us to "liberate" them. But President Bush always did have a peculiar relationship with democracy.

I feel we took several steps backwards the past 8 years, which are way too much to list right now but I want to ask you guys, what do you remember from the Bush presidency? Looking back at the Bush presidency...I'm shocked we didn't protest or talk to our local congressman, seeing as the constitution gives us the power to do so.

[piratesmvp04]

No we didn't. We fought there for a year or so right after 9/11 but we never caught Bin Laden as Bush promised, and redirected us to Iraq on false evidence...and you know how that story goes. The so-called "War on Terror" was a farce to begin with. Like the war on drugs, a "War on Terror" is an unwinnable, endless war.

There is no winning strategy in an endless war. With respect to the war in Iraq in particular, if history "vindicates" this occupation, history is mentally retarded. It was a lie going in, the declaration of victory was a lie, and the 4-years-and-counting occupation is an unmitigated disaster. No outcome will be worth the cost in lives and dollars. Not to mention, the Iraqi people never asked us to "liberate" them. But President Bush always did have a peculiar relationship with democracy.

I feel we took several steps backwards the past 8 years, which are way too much to list right now but I want to ask you guys, what do you remember from the Bush presidency? Looking back at the Bush presidency...I'm shocked we didn't protest or talk to our local congressman, seeing as the constitution gives us the power to do so.

I don't want to debate this; you have your opinions and I have mine. But as far as I what I will take away from the Bush presidency, I believe that Bush kept our country safe ever since 9/11, he is building a strong Iraqi ally in the middle east, and he has helped millions of Americans like me with the Bush taxcuts such as removing the Marriage Penalty. Although he is not perfect in that he spends way to much, overall, I am proud of George Welker Bush for his accomplishments for this country, and I wish him well in his post-presidential life.

[rolie]

It was a landslide victory for Obama in California. I was proud until I realized the changes that actually affect my state weren't made.

What doesn't make sense is the California people didn't vote on real change. Although a couple of props came from behind to narrow victory, the real important ones were defeated.

There was a possibility of changing the system for the better and reforming the penal system. There was also technological advances that were thwarted by the electrical or other companies. Gay marriage discrimination is also back in effect thanks to the millions spent by churches. Good to see all that tax free church money go to really help somebody.

I am happy that more minority people came out to vote but the real change wasn't voted for.

[Kccitystar]

Within 8 years Bush squandered the most powerful nation militarily, politically, and economically. Exploiting a nation at its weakest moment for agenda. Nearly everything he has done has been for personal or party benefit. While half-assing the real issues and problems. If there is one thing I hate, it is politics before country.

No amount of time is going to make this toxic waste palatable. This was the worst presidency in history. And not even for the reasons above.

The president's oath is to uphold the constitution of the United States of America. Throughout his presidency, Bush has held this time-honored document in contempt. Whether it's brazen 4th amendment violations through warrantless wiretapping, herding dissenters into remote, pre-approved "free speech zones", faith-based initiatives, denying prisoners the right to a trial (or even to hear their charges), or the proposed amendment denying homosexuals equal rights under the law, the constitution barely scrapped through the last 8 years.

Ultimately, people are responsible for the government they get. But unless you're advocating armed insurrection, I'm not sure what else could have been done. Many of the worst violations occured without debate, and without congressional approval.

[DeuceBlades]

Ok, heres the crap I am hearing from the right this morning on the house of reps. channel. There is a call in for people who have voted, and it makes me sick. 3 people called in and were asked about who they voted for, McCain or Obama. These 3 sick individuals, which Im guessing are the true base, said the following. Obamas cabinet will consist of Wright, Ayers and anyone mentioned that Obama was accused of knowing. The only thing he was gonna unite was terrorists. This is exactly the kind of crap DuckDodger, that we are gonna have to hear about, and if I hear it again in my face, someone is getting beatdown. Nobody cares about your opinion on what you are gonna have to hear. Your telling me that its unamerican to feel proud, even though you didnt say it, but you insinuated it. This was a big step, knocking down that barrier.

One note of mention, Ayers was linked to McCain too.

What has happened over the last 8 years, starting 2 wars, one for an oil pipeline to the Caspian Sea,, one for overthrowing a terrorist by any means necessary, both illegal. Using the 911 attack as an excuse. Our economy has failed, our military is overstretched and overburdened. Our privacy is gone and we have lost so many civil liberties because of Bush's policies. Why people continue to support whats going on, is way beyond me. Its a sad state of affairs to know that eastern bloc countries have more freedoms than we do. Thats saying alot, considering we are the "greatest country in the world."

[Pirate]

This is the exact kind of BS we're gonna have to listen to for who knows how long, now. America tries to get away from the 'race card' yet now it's oh so incredible that someone of a different race is elected. Right along the lines of reverse discrimination.

That smacks of racisim... which I believe is a major reason why most republicans voted for McCain and didn't make the switch. They wouldn't say it aloud, but they weren't ready for a black man to lead this country.

Well, one is, and that is history like none other in my lifetime.

For you discount this as reverse racisim, is you discounting all that has happened in the last two years. We are, for the most part, a United America.

Today, I am a proud American.

We are a better country today, not because Obama is President-elect, but because as American we took a giant step forward together as a people.

[DeuceBlades]

That smacks of racisim... which I believe is a major reason why most republicans voted for McCain and didn't make the switch. They wouldn't say it aloud, but they weren't ready for a black man to lead this country.

Well, one is, and that is history like none other in my lifetime.

For you discount this as reverse racisim, is you discounting all that has happened in the last two years. We are, for the most part, a United America.

Today, I am a proud American.

We are a better country today, not because Obama is President-elect, but because as American we took a giant step forward together as a people.

Just once, would I like for one of you who voted for McCain to just come out and say it. You would be respected more for your reason, instead of hiding behind rhetoric of why you think I voted for Obama. If you did it because of race, fine, great, we can move on. Obama will have 4 years to prove he was the right guy. Hes smart, he brings on very good people, very smart people into whatever he does. His cabinet again, I have to repeat this a million times, will be bi-partison. He will have the best of both sides giving him advice. Im not worried at all about this presidential term. I feel vindicated every time someone opens their mouth to blast me on my decision.

I was a republican.....I am no longer, because of this exact crap that Duck just spat out. Im not liberal, Im not conservative. I chose based on what was right for this country. What got Obama elected, wasnt Democrat or Republican, it was the Independants. I will not affiliate myself with any party anymore. I hope and pray that Obama has a successful term, and gets the chance for a second.

The Lebanese ran a post today in their paper saying America elected Black Kennedy. Some were running down the streets with an American flag on camera. If this Unites the US, this may just be the decision that could unite the world as one. That goes a long way in fighting terrorism.

[carpenter]

Many many thanks to all the people who went to vote from us here overseas!

[DeuceBlades]

Many many thanks to all the people who went to vote from us here overseas!

Your very welcome amico. This election I hope, will do what it was intended, to unify our alliances again. To one day have the world back on ourside. So I can go down any street in any european town, and hear them say, america is a great country again. I want to feel proud about that. Anyone that hasnt been to a foriegn country wouldnt know anything about that. Its ashame too, because if they only knew how the world really felt, they would be ashamed. In the Czech Republic, my vacation spot, my Czech friends tell me all the time, why are we so arrogant towards everyone. Now, hopefully, when I visit again in march, I will get something new, like about time you make smart decisions in your country. Obama wants to work with other countries, not go and bomb them. I can still hear that song "bomb bomb bomb...bomb bomb Iran" that McCain sung and it was caught on camera.

[vbprogjoe]

::thumbs down::

what would you want? More wars or a president that wants change in America?

I voted yesterday, for McCain. I have to agree with piratesmvp04, I'm concerned we will regret what happened last night. I'm personally fearful of Obama's socialist and liberal agenda, and what it is going to do to us as a country economically and politically. I don't want more wars, but I certainly don't trust the "Little O" ("The Big O" is taken by Oprah, I'm not mocking Obama) to protect this country at all from terrorism or another financial crisis. His change is not a "good" type of change in my opinion, it could, in fact, be a disaster. Nonetheless, unlike the radical liberals who just HATE Bush, Barack Obama will be MY president come January 20, 2009. I am disappointed and fearful of what he will do, but I hope that everything turns out decently. If not, in four years, we can always get rid of the man (hopefully).

Sincerely,

--- vbprogjoe :roll:

[rolie]

You guys are getting a bit too excited. Obama isn't going to change our overall military presence around the world. There is still a ton of bledshed with America's name signed in blood. So he's gonna move a few troops to Afghanistan and spread the word. I'm still not proud of this country even after Bush is gone. There 's still a ton of change that needs to take place. I don't for a second see us as united. I'm not that vague.

[Sean O]

You guys are getting a bit too excited. Obama isn't going to change our overall military presence around the world. There is still a ton of bledshed with America's name signed in blood. So he's gonna move a few troops to Afghanistan and spread the word. I'm still not proud of this country even after Bush is gone. There 's still a ton of change that needs to take place. I don't for a second see us as united. I'm not that vague.

Some of us have fought for 2 years (or, 4+ years, in my case) to see Obama elected president. From this second onwards, Obama can only dampen expectations and lessen his impact.

For last night, and the next few days, that Obama presidency is untarnished. We need to celebrate his election and the banishment of the fundamentalists before we get down to business. Let us have a few days.

(fenway's on the backburner for a while as I tweak YS)

[DeuceBlades]

Im kind of sick of the same old socialist viewpoint. Cutting taxes on the middleclass is not socialist, get over it. We have been spreading the wealth around since the beginning of time. The rich have been the highest taxed, with a 40-50% influx. Its all stupid spin that is baseless.

and Rolie, I dont see us as united either. Just 60% of us across the country. The other 40% are finding ways to critisize a president that hasnt even spent a day in office yet.