Arod Or Manny Ramirez??

[RaptorQuiz]

Basing it off of MVPs is silly because the BWAA likes to just make it up as they go along. It possibly looks like Ryan Howard will end up with 2 MVP awards after this season, 1 more than Albert Pujols.

And no one with a brain would argue that Ryan Howard is a better player than Albert Pujols.

Apparently the BWAA voters pulled their heads out for once in their rediculous lives, cuz The Mang just got his second MVP over Ryan 'Flavor of the Month' Howard.

Howard was good, but Pujols was his typical astounding.

Remove Howard from Philly's lineup (or just have him be horrible, like he was for about the first half of the season) and the Phillies still win games.

Take Albert out of STL's lineup, and the whole thing goes in the dumper.

This is how you measure how valuable someone is to their team.

If any Philly should've won an MVP this year, it was Lidge, not Howard.

[JP_Frost]

If any Philly should've won an MVP this year, it was Lidge, not Howard.

uhm, no, that belongs to Chase Utley.

[RaysFTW]

I'll take A-Rod in the regular season. His numbers are incredible. When it comes to the playoffs, I'll probably take Manny over almost any player you name.

[yanksrcool05]

tell me this is a joke. Arod's bad performance in the playoffs made Jeter and Posada worse? This is either the most sarcastic or dumbest post I've seen on this site.

Also, Arod is very solid defensively and he "sucked" really hard the last 3 seasons right?

I would argue the usage of terms as "clutch hitting" and that he needs to win a WS ring are completely irrelevant, but I don't think it would find much sympathy.

Umm, look at these guys stats in the 2006 ALCS or Games 4-7 in the 2004 ALCS. When A-Rod doesn't hit, he makes the surrounding guys worse.

Also, I believe A-Rod was ranked 18th in fielding runs, the most important fielding stat, among 3B.

1 more thing to add. Over the last 3 years he has averaged a .957 fielding% That's really solid :roll: .

[RaptorQuiz]

When A-Rod doesn't hit, he makes the surrounding guys worse.

Whenever an anchor of your lineup isn't hitting, I think it's fair to say that almost always happens - no matter who you are talking about.

When Howard wasn't hitting this post season, the Phils looked a lot more vulnerable at the plate. Once his bat got going, the whole lineup had to be treated differently.

When (rarely) Pujols isn't hitting at his normal otherworldly levels, other guys (like Ludwick, Glaus, and Ankiel this season) are forced to shoulder more of the load - and it doesn't always produce wonderful results.

When A-Rod isn't hitting, the other guys get pitched to more selectively, and they don't always perform as well.

This phenomenon isn't limited to A-Rod and the Yanks.

[Sean O]

Umm, look at these guys stats in the 2006 ALCS or Games 4-7 in the 2004 ALCS. When A-Rod doesn't hit, he makes the surrounding guys worse.

Correlation implies causation!

This is one of the single dumbest things I've ever read in my life. Surely it can't be that the pitching was simply performing better, that would be too simple. Obviously the third baseman is making others suck.

[Homer]

Correlation implies causation!

what do you mean? so i don't make the sun rise every morning? are you sure? because every morning when i wake up, the sun rises.

[Sean O]

what do you mean? so i don't make the sun rise every morning? are you sure? because every morning when i wake up, the sun rises.

If you ever don't wake up, we're all doomed.

On a complete tangent, this, to me, is the utter failure of the American school system. Instead of memorizing stupid crap that is an iphone google search away, we need to teach actual critical thinking skills so people don't stumble into horrendously stupid arguments like this. It has nothing to do with intelligence or aptitude, it's the desire and ability to take 5 seconds and consider other potential reasons.

Grrr.

[Homer]

that's our schooling these days. too many professors, very few teachers. lots of trivia, very little practicality.

[RaptorQuiz]

Did someone say failure of our schooling system(s)?

[RaptorQuiz]

On a complete tangent, this, to me, is the utter failure of the American school system. Instead of memorizing stupid crap that is an iphone google search away, we need to teach actual critical thinking skills so people don't stumble into horrendously stupid arguments like this. It has nothing to do with intelligence or aptitude, it's the desire and ability to take 5 seconds and consider other potential reasons.

Grrr.

I think effective communication is the problem here, not the validity of the argument itself.

I'll just extend my Pujols/STL example...

It's not that Ludwick was a BAD player when Pujols was out. It's just that, when he was not protected in the lineup (b/c A.P. was out), he performed much worse than he had before and after A.P.'s absence. Why? Because he was able to be pitched to differently - and he could not rise to the level of pitching he was forced to deal with when Pujols was out of the lineup.

So, it's not that Pujols being out of the lineup made Ludwick a worse PLAYER, but it did make him have worse RESULTS.

Thus, Ludwick-with-Pujols-in-the-lineup >>> Ludwick-without-Pujols-in-the-lineup.

The original poster over simplified the causation, but not the end result.

[Sean O]

I simply don't think a 3 game sample size is indicative of anything. And, I think there's a difference between your example and his: in one, Pujols is physically not playing, while in the other A-rod is still "protecting" him, in that he's in the lineup.

Just because Manny Ramirez or Alex Rodriguez haven't gotten a hit in a day or two, it doesn't mean that pitchers approach them any differently. It's not like Manny goes on a 2-10 streak and suddenly they're grooving 89 mph fastballs down the zone.

[hull16s]

let's ask Madonna, she knows heaps on the subject........Canseco, Rodman :wink:

[ro290190]

Manny

[SESbb30]

what were arods playoff stats in seattle? that would be interesting to see.

[Sean O]

 1997   ALDS  SEA BAL	 L   4  16   1   5  1  0  1   1   0   5  .313  .313  .563   0  0   0   0   0 


 2000   ALDS  SEA CHW	 W   3  13   0   4  0  0  0   2   0   2  .308  .308  .308   0  1   1   0   0 


		ALCS  SEA NYY	 L   6  22   4   9  2  0  2   5   3   8  .409  .480  .773   1  0   0   0   0

[SESbb30]

those arent bad number at all.

[JP_Frost]

his career line in the playoffs is pretty good as well:

.279/.361/.483

[yanksrcool05]

Take note, those numbers were before Clemens threw at his head in 2001. You probably don't know what I am talking about. He's not the same player in terms of contact and hitting the ball to all fields as he used to be. He has a hole in his swing from always trying to pull HR. The pitchers just know to throw low and outside, and he'll popup or strikeout.

And in terms of playoff production, it doesn't matter what his career postseason stats are. It matters what his stats were in the playoffs as a Yankee. In has last 4 series, he has hit a paltry .182 with 3 HR and six RBI. And those stats are even inflated, because through the first 3 games of the 2004 ALCS, A-Rod was actually a fantastic postseason hitter (Of course, out of the very few times he's made it to the postseason). Perhaps it would be more accurate to look at his playoff stats after Game 3, 2004 ALCS.

You may also take a look at his clutch hitting stats on http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bspli...ial01&year=2008

Also look at his 2006 splits, along with his .937 FP

In the Splits section, notice the dropoff in production from 1st half to 2nd half. Also check out his RBIs 8th inning and beyond what was it, 4.

And here's some more stat inflation. If you look at the stats, most of his HR usually make the game change from 10-1 to 10-3, or 9-4 to 10-4, especially in late innings. Y4L, do you remember the last time "Double Play-Rod" hit a 3-Run or GS HR, for that matter? But then again our whole offense was terrible with runners on last year.

Yes, hard to believe I'm a Yankee fan from such a rant. But when you grow up watching sports with your father who criticizes his teams for doing one thing wrong.

And hey, it's an odd-numbered year next season, so prove me wrong A-Rod!

[BigPaPa]

Take note, those numbers were before Clemens threw at his head in 2001. You probably don't know what I am talking about. He's not the same player in terms of contact and hitting the ball to all fields as he used to be. He has a hole in his swing from always trying to pull HR. The pitchers just know to throw low and outside, and he'll popup or strikeout.

And in terms of playoff production, it doesn't matter what his career postseason stats are. It matters what his stats were in the playoffs as a Yankee. In has last 4 series, he has hit a paltry .182 with 3 HR and six RBI. And those stats are even inflated, because through the first 3 games of the 2004 ALCS, A-Rod was actually a fantastic postseason hitter (Of course, out of the very few times he's made it to the postseason). Perhaps it would be more accurate to look at his playoff stats after Game 3, 2004 ALCS.

You may also take a look at his clutch hitting stats on http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bspli...ial01&year=2008

Also look at his 2006 splits, along with his .937 FP

In the Splits section, notice the dropoff in production from 1st half to 2nd half. Also check out his RBIs 8th inning and beyond what was it, 4.

And here's some more stat inflation. If you look at the stats, most of his HR usually make the game change from 10-1 to 10-3, or 9-4 to 10-4, especially in late innings. Y4L, do you remember the last time "Double Play-Rod" hit a 3-Run or GS HR, for that matter? But then again our whole offense was terrible with runners on last year.

Yes, hard to believe I'm a Yankee fan from such a rant. But when you grow up watching sports with your father who criticizes his teams for doing one thing wrong.

And hey, it's an odd-numbered year next season, so prove me wrong A-Rod!

Your a F**king idiot, hes won 2 mvp awards since 2001 and his spray chardt looks the same so just shut mr wan-a-be baseball scout...

[Sean O]

Take note, those numbers were before Clemens threw at his head in 2001. You probably don't know what I am talking about. He's not the same player in terms of contact and hitting the ball to all fields as he used to be.

Correlation does not imply causation, people. With such a massive hole in his swing, I'd say that .314 .422 .645 is pretty impressive in 2007, right? He had the best year of his career in '07, and that's in a more difficult run scoring environment than early on. And it was only barely his best season ever, because of his outstanding 2005 with the Yankees.

[ro290190]

But SeanO, I think you're missing the fact that Clemens actually threw at his head, I think it was 2001 when it happened.....

[Sean O]

But SeanO, I think you're missing the fact that Clemens actually threw at his head, I think it was 2001 when it happened.....

So?

[ro290190]

Sarcasm never comes across well in text form, would more exclamation points have helped!?

[Sean O]

Sarcasm never comes across well in text form, would more exclamation points have helped!?

I kinda hoped you were being sarcastic, I just didn't cross the sarchasm.

Personally, I think Rodriguez only has 3 MVPs since 2001 because of the September 11 attacks. Otherwise he'd already be at 800 homers and counting.