Updating Rosters

[Yankee4Life]

Y4L, I feel we have gotten to know, and understand each other to a point, so I hope I have your respect when I say this:

At no point has he ever said that you should be able to change something, and upload it as your own. Rules are rules, and I personally have no desire to break them (out of respect for the work done by the modders), whether I 100% agree with them or not.

He is simply saying, that if you can make something someone else did better by changing a few things, and you make sure that person gets credit for all of their work, and make sure people know what little you did, why is it so bad to share it with the world. I agree.

The fact is, I have seen a mod created, based on another's work. The person stated that it was all someone else's but the parts he did. He never claimed it was his own, he boldly stated who did it, and what he changed. He even said he had gotten permission in the past to work with this person's mod, but not on this particular occasion. He was ripped to shreds by a few people (one who is in this thread, and a few others), and the mod was removed.

Maybe, like Dylan, this is just my opinion, but.... Based off of my previous modding experience with High Heat, if someone can make something I did better, or more realistic.... Have at it. If it's better than mine, hell I will probably download it and use it myself. A simple mention of my name will make me happy.

I'd personally make sure the down loaders know exactly what parts I changed, and that the rest is the original modders work, but what I expect of myself, and what I expect of others is always different.

I personally have permission from Hyman to update his old Yankee stadium, and try to make it look more like new Yankee stadium. It's hard work, and I never was able to get it figured out. I had made some progress in zmod, but kinda got stuck, and moved on to other things. He was "excited" to see what I could come up with, and I would have had zero issue with using his work as a base.

I also have permission to use jp_hidalgo's original all timers project as a base for a roster I am working on. I have changed 100% of the players ratings. I have changed about 40% of the players from ones that he included, to ones I thought should be included instead.

The only reason I based my rosters off of his was because originally I had no intention of releasing it, and was just hoping to save a little time for my own personal use. I created the same mod in High Heat years ago, and started from scratch since I was originally going to upload that one (never did as the games usage had dwindled to the point it was a waste of time). Anyway, I had 2 or 3 people ask me to upload it when I finished, so I asked the original modder. I still have his PM, and his response was:

I also have no issue with uploading it once I am done with it. Even with his work as a base I have spent HOURS on this thing, and I have his blessing.

You do emath. You are one of the many people on this site I have a lot of respect for and I always stop to listen and take account of what your opinions are about things.

I understand exactly what he means by taking the other guy's work and letting everyone know you based your updated work on that person and also letting the community know exactly what you did to modify the work and to give the other person full credit. I admit that does sound ok on the surface, but we still have to protect the rights of the modders here by all means necessary.

Let me give you an example based on what you are saying. I'll go look in the download area right now and I'll see if I can find a good example.

Ok, I got one. Right now I am looking at Total Classics 1969 by Jim825. Needless to say this is a fantastic season mod and the man hours that Jim put into this is something that I can not even guess at right now. Among the things he had to put in this mod to make it the way it is is this:

Cyberfaces

Audio

Complete 1969 rosters

1969 ERA stadiums

1969 Music Soundtrack

CTS Screen

Photos

Etc, etc, etc.

This 1969 mod is Jim's work and the people that helped Jim out with the mod.

Now, let's say that I do what tyger is suggesting. Let's say I take this 1969 mod and edit it. Let me throw some new audio in it. Let me edit the 1969 rosters because I didn't like how some of the players were created. Let me take out one player on a team that I didn't think needed to be there and replace him with someone else that was on the 1969 team. Let me change the CTS screen and other loading screens with photos that I want to be in there and let me change the 1969 Soundtrack in the game to some other music from 1969.

Now emath, I do that and then I repackage this mod and I'll upload it to the website as a brand new and improved 1969 season mod and while I do that, I do not forget to give total credit to Jim825 and the rest of the modders that worked on the original mod.

Doesn't sound so good, doesn't it? Here they are doing all the work and all I am doing is making minor adjustments to it and I'm passing it off as something that I did.

The problem with this is that these modders did the work and others want to come in and mod just part of their work and just because they give them credit in their work (and people don't read credits anyways) they will think it is ok.

This is why I think that you need permission from the original modder to work on an existing mod because you should tell them what your intentions are. Like you did with Hyman. You told him you wanted to update the old Yankee ballpark to make it look like the newer one. No problem. But to do it without permission does not go over well around here.

[DylanBradbury]

I honestly don't want to do anything, I love KG's work and I know he will do a much better job on the rosters then I ever could. I am also not advicating that people should be able to take his work and pass it off as there own. I am saying that people should be able to take his work and edit it, giving him full credit for what he has done. Basically all I am saying is we are editing EA's work without permision, which is fine, but to edit KG's or another modders is not fine for some reason. I know it is an arguement I will not win it is just something for you guys to think about.

tyger, EA included an in-game roster editor for editing rosters! Back to my painting example, it would be like giving an artist a paintbrush, paints, and a canvas, and telling the artist, "Ok, here's your materials, but don't do anything with them. Oh, and don't share them with anyone else."

I really think EA intended for people who bought their game to edit the default rosters.

He is simply saying, that if you can make something someone else did better by changing a few things, and you make sure that person gets credit for all of their work, and make sure people know what little you did, why is it so bad to share it with the world. I agree.

The fact is, I have seen a mod created, based on another's work. The person stated that it was all someone else's but the parts he did. He never claimed it was his own, he boldly stated who did it, and what he changed. He even said he had gotten permission in the past to work with this person's mod, but not on this particular occasion. He was ripped to shreds by a few people (one who is in this thread, and a few others), and the mod was removed.

Maybe, like Dylan, this is just my opinion, but.... Based off of my previous modding experience with High Heat, if someone can make something I did better, or more realistic.... Have at it. If it's better than mine, hell I will probably download it and use it myself. A simple mention of my name will make me happy.

I'd personally make sure the down loaders know exactly what parts I changed, and that the rest is the original modder's work, but what I expect of myself, and what I expect of others is always different.

I also have no issue with uploading it once I am done with it. Even with his work as a base I have spent HOURS on this thing, and I have his blessing.

I'm flabbergasted that people would even consider releasing a mod without permission and/or credit.

Emath, if someone "re-"released your mods with your permission, wouldn't you be offended that someone thought your work wasn't good enough, that it had to be edited and released again?

Once in my high-school, a student used someone else's essay as "inspiration". The student even gave credit to the original essayist in their bibliography. However, there was so too much similarity, and the copier got into so much trouble, he even had to repeat the course. To relieve my curiosity, how do the penalties differ in the US compared to Canada (where I live) for a similar crime?

[tyger]

This may be a little late but I just woke up and have read the past comments. Y4L, I have never stated that you should be able to take someone elses work post it as your own and give no credit for what the other person did. I completely agree that you must give full disclosure of what you did and what someone else did, even if they give you permision to use their mod. And to dylan, regardless of how we feel on this arguement, you can never assume someone has given consent to moddify their work. Take emaths example. Not noone exactly what the situation is I'm going to make some assumtions on what happened, but it will serve as an example weather this is what actually happened or not. Someone had had permision in the past to mod something, he assumed it was blanket permision and got ripped to shreads for it

[Yankee4Life]

Then I really have no idea what you are saying here or what your point is. When a modder makes a mod on this site, he owns it 100%. All we basically do for the person is host the file here. The modder can edit and make changes to the mod any time he wishes to and he also can remove his mods at any time.

If someone modifys another person's work and uploads it to the site, chances are it will be approved for a short time. That is until the modder discovers that his work was used somehow and someway without his consent. Then that mod is immediately removed.

Do yourself a favor and ask Snash13 about this. He's the first guy right now I am thinking of that comes to mind.

[DylanBradbury]

And to dylan, regardless of how we feel on this arguement, you can never assume someone has given consent to moddify their work. Take emaths example. Not noone exactly what the situation is I'm going to make some assumtions on what happened, but it will serve as an example weather this is what actually happened or not. Someone had had permision in the past to mod something, he assumed it was blanket permision and got ripped to shreads for it

I think you've misunderstood what I've said. To summarize:

1. EA provided an in-game roster editor. I'm pretty sure they want you to edit the rosters with it.

2. Asking permission is mandatory.

3. Giving credit is mandatory.

4. I'd have trouble sleeping at night if I was releasing someone else's mod, without permission and/or credit.

5. It worries me that people would even consider it.

6. If you completely modify another person's mod, it's still another person's mod and ALWAYS will be.

I think that's it.

One more thing I forgot, if someone decided to "crack" or reverse-engineer the formulas inside my calculators, there'd be no end to my fury.

[bokajay]

here are my feelings as a long time using of the mods all of you great ppl have made while myself not contributing any mods...

I think the only way it should be acceptable for someone to use others' work without prior permission is if for some reason KG or any modder stops posting updates for their mods and they do not respond to emails or messages regarding obtaining permission.. then someone should be able to continue their work while giving credit to the original.

I think that is the only way you can compare editing EA's work to editing a MODDER's work.

I believe that would make the most sense due to the fact that the work everyone has put towards modding games, MVP 2005 in particular, has been amazing and has kept a product or in this case an entire franchise that EA has abandoned (for legal reasons) relevant and up-to-date.

[DylanBradbury]

here are my feelings as a long time using of the mods all of you great ppl have made while myself not contributing any mods...

I think the only way it should be acceptable for someone to use others' work without prior permission is if for some reason KG or any modder stops posting update for their mods and they do not respond to emails or messages regarding obtaining perm.. then someone should be able to continue their work while giving credit to the original.

I respectfully disagree. If KG stopped updating his rosters, then he obviously stopped for a reason. We're not vultures, taking other people's old work, editing it, and then submitting it.

There is absolutely no reason to take someone else's mod and use it as a base or a template for your own mod.

P.S. My mind is flabbergasted that so many people think is acceptable.

[Yankee4Life]

here are my feelings as a long time using of the mods all of you great ppl have made while myself not contributing any mods...

YEP.

I think the only way it should be acceptable for someone to use others' work without prior permission is if for some reason KG or any modder stops posting updates for their mods and they do not respond to emails or messages regarding obtaining permission.. then someone should be able to continue their work while giving credit to the original.

So, you are saying that I can go in the download section and grab all the uniforms made by someone like Moser316 or Sandman for example (both who have not made uniforms for years) and take them, modify them a little bit here and there, claim it as my own while making sure I give credit to the original modders? I'm sorry, but that's not even right. Not even close. Look, I get what you are saying. But if that was allowed to happen, then all hell would break loose.

[Jim825]

Ok, I got one. Right now I am looking at Total Classics 1969 by Jim825. Needless to say this is a fantastic season mod and the man hours that Jim put into this is something that I can not even guess at right now. Among the things he had to put in this mod to make it the way it is is this:

Cyberfaces

Audio

Complete 1969 rosters

1969 ERA stadiums

1969 Music Soundtrack

CTS Screen

Photos

Etc, etc, etc.

This 1969 mod is Jim's work and the people that helped Jim out with the mod.

A correction is needed here. The Total Classics 1969 mod was actually created by stecropper, and not me. My name appears with this mod (and some of the other single season mods) because I'm typically the person who posts these mods to MVPMods. This is mainly because I am the one who creates the installers and packages up the mods.

[patsen]

There's a difference between plagiarism and expanding on someone else's work. Especially if they no longer contribute.

I'm not saying people should be taking work someone else did, make a few changes then start claiming it's their own. Of course, the first response should be asking permission.

Now, when the game came out, and before people were making full roster mods, the general response was to take EA's rosters, and give a series of instructions of roster changes to make, some characters to create and generally set that out in a text file. If you look up MVP on GameFaqs, that's generally what you'll find. It could take a few hours, but then you'd have an up to date roster. The ratings were probably a bit out of date, but there wasn't much that could be done, you could modify the biggest ones.

However, since it could take several hours to make these changes, people had to make the decision of making all those changes by hand, or accepting the game as is. Most people don't have the time to do so, so they might choose to leave it alone.

Or, someone can decide to do all the work for them, and provide the roster in a very simple form. A single mod. Now, people can choose to either download and install the mod, a simple thing, or leave it alone. But most people would run the mod.

And really, that's what a mod is. Someone choosing to do work to improve an aspect of the game for the benefit of other people. Since the alternative to publishing a mod is to not publish a mod, but then only the people benefiting are those who make the work from scratch, so very few get to enjoy it. Modding the game has kept it relevant through the years.

But making mods is a labour of love, with an emphasis on labour. It could take 500 hours to learn enough and prepare enough material to make a high-quality product, but once that learning curve is in, it's generally just a thing of maintenance. But if everyone has to take those hours to figure things out from scratch, it's generally a waste of resources. Particularly from a community which is becoming less and less active by the day.

When you leave a job for whatever reason, the general response shouldn't be to destroy your notes and salt the ground so that nothing can ever grow again. That's why I wish there were more people like emath, who allow others to add onto their work. Especially if they no longer feel the ability to contribute.

Right now, because there is a serious learning curve to making rosters, only one person is doing so, and because of this, he has a monopoly on roster making. And, because he has a monopoly on roster making, then he's in no dire rush to publish the next version because there's no competition.

Of course, if someone else were to make a roster set, then there would be a choice, and people could choose which they use. The only reason I haven't made one is because there's no convenient way to convert my database of stats to adequate ratings, and I've since taken on a different project.

So, I guess if KG never answers, the best he can do is make a text file showing all the moves he would do, and people can download that and run it on KG's latest roster set, circa somewhere in 2008.

If this is truly how the community feels, then I fear for its future.

[bokajay]

So, you are saying that I can go in the download section and grab all the uniforms made by someone like Moser316 or Sandman for example (both who have not made uniforms for years) and take them, modify them a little bit here and there, claim it as my own while making sure I give credit to the original modders? I'm sorry, but that's not even right. Not even close. Look, I get what you are saying. But if that was allowed to happen, then all hell would break loose.

No but what if a total conversion mod like MVP 09 or 10 is made for MVP 05 and a modder's work was needed and they weren't around to give permission... should someone have to reproduce their work?? That seems ridiculous to me. Their work should be referenced and not forgotten.

I am not trying to take anything away from modders...I think the modders are the most important part of this community and others including popular mod sites like NBA Live Series Center and EAMods. However the greater goal should be to expand upon these great games and add what the true gaming sports fan wants. In that regard we are all fans first of these games and not their creators. Modders should get the credit they deserve but preserving the game should be more important then preserving egos.

You may choose to disagree with me as I stated I haven't contributed much to this game but I am a true fan of it and the great mods that are created by many in this forum.

[DylanBradbury]

There's a difference between plagiarism and expanding on someone else's work. Especially if they no longer contribute.

If someone no longer contributes, they've abandoned their work for a reason. Other modders shouldn't just pick up the pieces of an abandonded mod You don't have to call expanding someone else's abandoned work plagiarism, but whatever you call it, it's wrong.

Imagine if the original modder decided to come back, and reserect his/her work?? Any amount of anger would be justified.

But making mods is a labour of love, with an emphasis on labour. It could take 500 hours to learn enough and prepare enough material to make a high-quality product, but once that learning curve is in, it's generally just a thing of maintenance. But if everyone has to take those hours to figure things out from scratch, it's generally a waste of resources. Particularly from a community which is becoming less and less active by the day.

When people made the first mods on this website, they had to learn how to mod from scratch. If they release their mod as a template, then I can see other people using it as such. If it's not released as a template, there is no justification to use someone else's mod and "modify until it's their own".

When you leave a job for whatever reason, the general response shouldn't be to destroy your notes and salt the ground so that nothing can ever grow again. That's why I wish there were more people like emath, who allow others to add onto their work. Especially if they no longer feel the ability to contribute.

It's not a job. It's a hobby. People can do whatever they wish to THEIR SUBMISSIONS if they decide to leave. Again, peopele usually have their reasons for leaving, and those need to be respected.

Right now, because there is a serious learning curve to making rosters, only one person is doing so, and because of this, he has a monopoly on roster making. And, because he has a monopoly on roster making, then he's in no dire rush to publish the next version because there's no competition.

Of course, if someone else were to make a roster set, then there would be a choice, and people could choose which they use. The only reason I haven't made one is because there's no convenient way to convert my database of stats to adequate ratings, and I've since taken on a different project.

A person should NEVER be rushing to release their mods, just because another "competing" mod might be released first. When there was multiple roster sets on these sites, I don't think that occurred.

KG, I think, left this site because he didn't agree with the newly implemented subscriptions. He had every right to do so.

So, I guess if KG never answers, the best he can do is make a text file showing all the moves he would do, and people can download that and run it on KG's latest roster set, circa somewhere in 2008.

He doesn't have to do anything. If he wants to "destroy and salt the ground" he can, and shouldn't feel bad doing it. (Especially after some of the crazy revelations made by users in this thread.)

If this is truly how the community feels, then I fear for its future.

I think there is more to this site than MVP Baseball, we all like the sport

---------------------------------------------

I must have been raised in some sort of anti-stealing world. I can't believe I'm reading the stuff people are advocating here.

[DylanBradbury]

No but what if a total conversion mod like MVP 09 or 10 is made for MVP 05 and a modder's work was needed and they weren't around to give permission... should someone have to reproduce their work?? That seems ridiculous to me. Their work should be referenced and not forgotten.

YES!! Someone would have to produce their own work. KG's rosters were not released as a template. If he can start rosters from scratch, so can anyone.

[bokajay]

Patsen made some great points and Yankee4Life I totally agree with you that it is unacceptable for someone to take someone else's work and claim its theirs after changing something minor things. I just see both sides points here and as a fan of the game and this site I just want to see great work continued and progress made with this game and of course with MLB2k9 or 2k10 for that matter. I am in no way advocating stealing people's work or reducing others contributions.. I just think some of the great work that has been done over the years may soon go to waste if people feel scared to even ask permission to use other's work as a base.

[XxFightingIrish]

So I asked KG for his permission, but he declined b/c he is releasing an update soon

[bokajay]

So I asked KG for his permission, but he declined b/c he is releasing an update soon

this thread should be put to rest then.. its obvious that there is many against taking anyone's work without full permission and that is the right of the admins and the main contributors... but the point is moot as far as KG's rosters anyway if KG is planning on continuing his work. He has done a great job on his rosters and there are many here that I am sure would help him out if he wanted and not even ask for a credit or a shout out for it.. myself included. I just want to see these mods continued for MVP and all other games on this site.

[DylanBradbury]

this thread should be put to rest then.. its obvious that there is many against taking anyone's work without full permission and that is the right of the admins and the main contributors...

I'd rather if it wasn't put to to rest. People should be allowed to voice their opinion without being muted. (But that's just me.)

[bokajay]

I'd rather if it wasn't put to to rest. People should be allowed to voice their opinion without being muted. (But that's just me.)

I agree we should all be able to voice our opinions...its just this discussion of someone wondering if they could update KG's work has turned into a bigger discussion and is no longer just about his particular work but every modders work on this site. I was referring to just this particular thread. I think this has turned into a much larger discussion about whether the work posted on here is open source or not. Which based on YFL's comments and no it is not. I have no problem with that as it is the admins and the contributors' choice and not fair for anyone to take it upon themselves to take someone's hard work (1000s of hours which I fully believe) and steal it and post it as theirs. I would be pissed if that happened to my work too and I have often spent countless nights working on my own personal rosters for games that no longer have active modders working on updates and when I used to post roster updates long ago for NBA Live games in the late 90s. However my opinion is modders should have the right to allow their work to be used in the future if they no longer stay active on this site and worked on and kept up. If i did 1000s of hours of work on a roster like KG has and I no longer wanted to do it, I would hope someone would like to take over for me while continuing to give me credit for work previously done. But that is his choice and not mine or anyone else. But in this case he still wants to work on it and it seems he wants to keep the exclusive rights to what he has done and I don't blame him for that. Just keep in mind that someone would love to continue your work if you decide to stop and that is your option not ours.

[patsen]

No, I doubt much more can be said. The site policies are in place, not everyone agrees with them, and no one is threatening to change anyone's mind soon.

It would be nice if people were more open, we'd likely be more productive as a whole, but it is what it is. Hopefully the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

EDIT: Typo

[tyger]

I am sorry that this thread has blown up as big as it did. I did not relize the fight that I would cause when I started this aurgument. I am truely sorry if I offended or angered anyone that was not my goal. Y4L made me relize a flaw in my thinking though that I would like to point out. I was originally thinking that someone should be able to take something I will use KG's roster as an example, make "significant" alterations to it and release it giving KG full credit for the work he did. the problem would be defining significant changes. certainly it would be absurd for me to take KG's roster, edit a players batting stance and release it as Tygers roster with I minor thanks to kg in a readme that noone reads. In a perfect world everyone would share there work we would be able to create amazing baseball game and everyone would be happy. The world isn't perfect though. People want and deserve credit for their work. It is easy for me to want to allow people to edit other peoples work because I have not modded. I have attempted but don't have the patients or the ability. The one thing I do know though is that we are taking EA's work editing it without their permision and distributing it to other people.

[bokajay]

I am sorry that this thread has blown up as big as it did. I did not relize the fight that I would cause when I started this aurgument. I am truely sorry if I offended or angered anyone that was not my goal. Y4L made me relize a flaw in my thinking though that I would like to point out. I was originally thinking that someone should be able to take something I will use KG's roster as an example, make "significant" alterations to it and release it giving KG full credit for the work he did. the problem would be defining significant changes. certainly it would be absurd for me to take KG's roster, edit a players batting stance and release it as Tygers roster with I minor thanks to kg in a readme that noone reads. In a perfect world everyone would share there work we would be able to create amazing baseball game and everyone would be happy. The world isn't perfect though. People want and deserve credit for their work. It is easy for me to want to allow people to edit other peoples work because I have not modded. I have attempted but don't have the patients or the ability. The one thing I do know though is that we are taking EA's work editing it without their permision and distributing it to other people.

I know you weren't trying to start a fight on here. The main reason I started to voice my opinion is that I am witnessing stuff similar to this happening in other mod sites and forums.

In NLSC people are accusing others of stealing their work...for examples with cyberfaces... it is ridiculous because they are taking copy-written high resolution pics of players and making faces with them and then others are taking these same pictures (as they are often rare in very high resolutions) and photoshoping them.. like removing facial hair etc and then claiming others stole them from them. It's just another example how some modders are starting to believe they legally own their work.. but as far as roster updates I can 100% see KG's point and others that a lot of time has been put in and making these rosters from basically scratch. While he doesn't have legal rights to his work, morally we should all respect his work. My point and I think the point of some of the people on here is that we just would hate for someone to do all that work then retire from it and it not be passed on or less and less people contributing because they do not want to start from scratch because they cannot get permission from others...that was my point all along.

[DylanBradbury]

I am sorry that this thread has blown up as big as it did. I did not relize the fight that I would cause when I started this aurgument. I am truely sorry if I offended or angered anyone that was not my goal. Y4L made me relize a flaw in my thinking though that I would like to point out. I was originally thinking that someone should be able to take something I will use KG's roster as an example, make "significant" alterations to it and release it giving KG full credit for the work he did. the problem would be defining significant changes. certainly it would be absurd for me to take KG's roster, edit a players batting stance and release it as Tygers roster with I minor thanks to kg in a readme that noone reads. In a perfect world everyone would share there work we would be able to create amazing baseball game and everyone would be happy. The world isn't perfect though. People want and deserve credit for their work. It is easy for me to want to allow people to edit other peoples work because I have not modded. I have attempted but don't have the patients or the ability. The one thing I do know though is that we are taking EA's work editing it without their permision and distributing it to other people.

You don't need to apologize for starting a conversation, as I would hardly call this an argument. It's just people voicing their opinion.

[DylanBradbury]

No, I doubt much more can be said. The site policies are in place, not everyone agrees with them, and no one is threatening to change anyone's mind soon.

It would be nice if people were more open, we'd likely be more productive as a whole, but it is what it is. Hopefully the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Well, I thought I should give you the chance to rebuttal. We may never agree, but I respect your opinion.

People's mods are the property of the modder. NOT the people who use them.

In my opinion it's truly diabolical when people ask permission to release a-so-called "improved" version of someone else's mod, and I know I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I did it.

If someone cracked or reversed engineered my calculator's formulas and released it in a different mod, I'd be so hurt. It would mean someone would consider my calculators inferior to what they released. It also means that all the years of work I put into these formulas, were for nothing because the thief changed something like two numbers and voila, a better formula in two seconds. That's not cool.

[tyger]

Just an aside. Dylan you have said a few times I don't know how someone could sleep at night if they took a modders work without permision. First off I want to warn you that I am not saying this to critisize you just to show another point of view. If you take more of a communistic point of view, someone may say that they don't know how you can sleep at night keeping your mods as your own and not allowing others to improve on them. You should offer your mods to anyone who feels they can improve them because that is what is best for the whole. This is actually a very interesting example of how culture can determine morality.

[deathforwolf]

What are you talking about? Is what compatible?

MVP2005Editor