Issue With Roster For 1961 Conversion

[Deputy]

I don't know if anyone caught this, but the roster for the White Sox has Wes Covington on it. That is correct for the date of the roster, 3/20/61.

Covington was traded by the Chicago White Sox June 10, 1961 with Stan Johnson, Bob Shaw and Gerry Staley to the Kansas City Athletics for Andy Carey, Ray Herbert, Don Larsen and Al Pilarcik. The problem is Andy Carey and Ray Herbert and Don Larsen are ALSO on the White Sox roster. They shouldn't be.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/covinwe01.shtml#trans

Now I have a question: If I edit the roster to correct it, and I am in the middle of a Dynasty game, will that screw up the game?

[stecropper]

Hey Deputy,

Error to one person may not be an error to another.

The 61* rosters were built to include the players/pitchers that played/pitched for a team mostly with regard to # of At Bats/Innings Pitched for that particular team during the course of that year and without any regard as to when they actually were on the team during the year. Also consideration was given to selecting the players that provided the best balance and position coverage for a particular team. With the case of Covington (who had 59 at bats with a .288 batting average) and Pilarcik (who had 62 at bats but a .177 batting average) Covington was selected as the backup outfielder for the '61 White Sox. This is also why you will find some players playing on more than one team in the 61* mod --- it too is by design.

The 3/20/61 date on the loading screen was only placed there to replace the previous 2005 date and not to state that the rosters were truly accurate as of that date in 1961.

As far as editing your roster while in a Dynasty I would think if you use Tywiggins MVP Editor tool you should be OK or else you might just be able to accomplish your goals by using the Trade function within the Dynasty. But making those changes in RGlass's MVP Edit tool and then importing them into the game will not work as that will not update your Dynasty rosters.

Take Care,

Don

[Deputy]

Thanks Don. That would explain a lot as far as rosters are concerned. This is pretty disappointing to me. Personally, I prefer a more historically accurate roster for each team, rather than a roster based on frequency of play activity. As it is right now it seems to give certain teams an unfair advantage in batting and other abilities compared to what they actually had at any specific time. I would have been much happier with a roster that represented what every team had at a specific time of the season. Either at the start, the middle, or the end of the regular season. As it is I have a roster that whoever built the conversion felt is a "generally balanced" roster. I could theoretically have the same player playing on BOTH teams at the same time. Harldy an accurate representation of real baseball.

Dep

[MarkB]

Thanks Don. That would explain a lot as far as rosters are concerned. This is pretty disappointing to me. Personally, I prefer a more historically accurate roster for each team, rather than a roster based on frequency of play activity. As it is right now it seems to give certain teams an unfair advantage in batting and other abilities compared to what they actually had at any specific time. I would have been much happier with a roster that represented what every team had at a specific time of the season. Either at the start, the middle, or the end of the regular season. As it is I have a roster that whoever built the conversion felt is a "generally balanced" roster. I could theoretically have the same player playing on BOTH teams at the same time. Harldy an accurate representation of real baseball.

Dep

I understand your point, but in the same vein, what if they made the rosters the way you prefer, then someone else makes the exact same post as yours, but stating that they would prefer a roster based on how often certain players played for the team, rather than one at a certain date? What if the guys working on the mod were suddenly inundated with requests for Spring Training rosters, Opening Day rosters, rosters from the All-Star Game, rosters from before September call-ups, World Series rosters, and end of season rosters?

There's really no way to keep everyone happy with roster making for MVP '05. Unfortunately, it's the nature of the best. Even if we had the ability to add guys to the D.L., had September call-ups and roster expansion and reduction, it still wouldn't be perfect unless a roster update was released every single day, and, short of someone actually obtaining a full-time job to do solely that, it won't happen any time in the future.

Of course, you could always ask for a refund for the cost of the '61 mod. :)

[Deputy]

Actually, all they would need is 3 rosters as I suggested. This is especially true for playing in Dynasty mode. The current roster is fine for the guy who made it, but it DOES say on one of the opening screens that it is current for a specific date, not just a general average for the year. The only other roster I could forsee a call for would be a world series roster. At the very least and for the sake of some kind of REALISM, I would like a roster that has every player on every team assigned to ONLY ONE TEAM. I don't want to have a pitcher on the White Sox facing a batter on the Angels and have them be the SAME PERSON.

And there were many people happy with the roster updates that were made for the total conversion 08 mod. Even 09 had roster updates. Granted, there was a lot of intensive and ongoing work done on those mods. But they didn't just throw together a bunch of players and have them playing on the team that traded them along with their new teams. That just doesn't make any sense at all.

Don't jump to conclusions. I LIKE the '61 mod. My interest is in making playability a bit more realistic than what it is. Having the same player able to play on the same team simultaneously isn't a goofup that EA sports made. Why should we be content with it on a mod made by those who are trying to improve or extend the life of this sim?

[Yankee4Life]

Mr Deputy, I am not questioning your enjoyment about the 1961 mod. In fact, it is nice to see someone so involved with it. It is a great mod and the modders here have done a superb job with it. As I said before if you liked this mod you will love the other ones just as much. My favorites are the 1951 and 1978 mods.

Concerning your issue with the 1961 roster, I do have a work around for it but it is something you will have to do. These rosters that are provided in each of these mods are not set in stone. You see what I am getting at? If you see a discrepancy in the roster that you want to correct, I would go into MVPEdit and correct it. I would first back up the original roster that was provided with the mod and then fix the rosters according to how you want them. By doing this you will have your rosters set up exactly how you want them.

[DJEagles]

Actually, all they would need is 3 rosters as I suggested. This is especially true for playing in Dynasty mode. The current roster is fine for the guy who made it, but it DOES say on one of the opening screens that it is current for a specific date, not just a general average for the year. The only other roster I could forsee a call for would be a world series roster. At the very least and for the sake of some kind of REALISM, I would like a roster that has every player on every team assigned to ONLY ONE TEAM. I don't want to have a pitcher on the White Sox facing a batter on the Angels and have them be the SAME PERSON.

And there were many people happy with the roster updates that were made for the total conversion 08 mod. Even 09 had roster updates. Granted, there was a lot of intensive and ongoing work done on those mods. But they didn't just throw together a bunch of players and have them playing on the team that traded them along with their new teams. That just doesn't make any sense at all.

Don't jump to conclusions. I LIKE the '61 mod. My interest is in making playability a bit more realistic than what it is. Having the same player able to play on the same team simultaneously isn't a goofup that EA sports made. Why should we be content with it on a mod made by those who are trying to improve or extend the life of this sim?

That last line is pretty damn ignorant. Do you even begin to comprehend how long it takes these guys to put together these mods? I suspect you don't...or you wouldn't spend your time picking apart their hard work. Guys like you, make me sick. The modders can't please everyone, every time, but I suspect they wouldn't be able to please you at all. Why should we be content with it on a mod made by those who are trying to improve or extend the life of this sim? Because, these guys put their blood, sweat, and tears into this game, to make it fun for everyone, and they DO IT FOR FREE!

It's guys like you, that make me want to put my head through my screen. Just be happy there is a '61 mod. My God, if it wasn't for the modders, you wouldn't even be playing a Total Classic Mod. I suspect you aren't going to release one, anytime soon? Am I wrong? Do you have the PERFECT mod sitting on your hard drive, waiting to release it to the world? If so, I can't wait to take the time to pick it apart...because I won't settle for anything less then perfection. Buddy, you have a total of 21 posts here, so you obviously just lurk and download. Take the time to read other people's comments about any of the Total Classic Mods....I would suspect you will find that you are in the minority.

If you want 3 rosters, make them yourself. These guys are already making close to perfect mods...they certainly don't need you nitpicking everything.

[Jim825]

Actually, all they would need is 3 rosters as I suggested.

It is clear that you do not understand what it takes to create these rosters. The first step is to import teams one at a time from the Lahman database. The tricky thing about Lahman is that it includes players that played ANY amount of time on a team. So, you may import the 1961 Yankees into MVPEdit only to find that there are 48 players on your roster. You then have to cut this roster down to 25 players.

As Don said, the approach that the majority of the classic modders take (including me) is to put a player on the team where he played the most games, had the most at bats, pitched the most innings, etc. that season. Is this perfect? No, but this is the way we've done things and it's worked pretty well over the past 5 years and no one has really complained yet.

Once we make sure that there are only 25 players on each team, we then follow a 25-step process that Don put together to adjust all player attributes. Once this is done, we have to make individual tweaks to further refine batting and pitching attibutes to make season stats as close to the actual season as possible. This typically consists of making some small tweaks simming a season, looking at the end of season awards and league leader stats and then repeating the process again and again until we are completely satisfied with the final results. It's not uncommon for me to run 30 or 40 sims when I'm creating rosters to get the final set that I release with the mod.

As you can see, creating these rosters is not a simple 10 minute process. It can take months to get a single roster created and tweaked.

This is especially true for playing in Dynasty mode. The current roster is fine for the guy who made it, but it DOES say on one of the opening screens that it is current for a specific date, not just a general average for the year. The only other roster I could forsee a call for would be a world series roster. At the very least and for the sake of some kind of REALISM, I would like a roster that has every player on every team assigned to ONLY ONE TEAM. I don't want to have a pitcher on the White Sox facing a batter on the Angels and have them be the SAME PERSON.

As Don said, the date on the opening screen was not meant to imply that the rosters were correct on that day in history. It's the date (other than the year) that the mod was originally created.

When I create my rosters, I make sure that a player is ONLY on one team, so that you will never see him more than once. I'd be surprised if Don has a player on multiple teams in the *61 mod. The only time I've seen that occur in my dynasty is if I have injuries or suspensions turned on or allow the CPU to initiate its own trades. By keeping these options turned off, I've never seen a player show up on more than one team.

And there were many people happy with the roster updates that were made for the total conversion 08 mod. Even 09 had roster updates. Granted, there was a lot of intensive and ongoing work done on those mods. But they didn't just throw together a bunch of players and have them playing on the team that traded them along with their new teams. That just doesn't make any sense at all.

Don't jump to conclusions. I LIKE the '61 mod. My interest is in making playability a bit more realistic than what it is. Having the same player able to play on the same team simultaneously isn't a goofup that EA sports made. Why should we be content with it on a mod made by those who are trying to improve or extend the life of this sim?

I hope my earlier explanation of the roster creation process shows that none of us just "throws together a bunch of players." It is a long, time consuming process to create these rosters and if a player shows up on multiple rosters, it's not because the modders are lazy or don't care about the quality of the mods. Did you follow the instructions that came with the mod that state that when playing in dynasty mode you should turn off trades, injuries, suspensions, etc.?

[Deputy]

I understand the intensive work involved in creating these conversions. Am I wrong and these conversions aren't interested in accurately portraying the teams that actually played against each other? All that work making the player's stats and abilities and information accurate simply gets tossed in the garbage can when you have players that shouldn't even be on a team on the day and year specified in the opening screen

showing up there WITH the players that were traded for him. How in the world can that make any sense???? 25 players but some of them shouldnt be on the team and should be on another team.

"As Don said, the date on the opening screen was not meant to imply that the rosters were correct on that day in history."

No kidding. They are only vaguley close

"It's the date (other than the year) that the mod was originally created."

I checked every file in the conversion and none of them are dated March 20th. And what possible benefit would there be to knowing the month and day the mod was created? In this case March 20th. The EXACT wording on the start of the 1961 mod is "Team rosters current as of 3/20/61". I don't think that needs any interpretation. It says what it says. Nothing there about "created on this date".

I DON'T want someone "tweaking" with gameplay or trying to make a "level the playing field" in the name of gameplay. That concept is fine for politicians (although I think it sux there too), but it has no place in a sim that is trying to duplicate a certain season of baseball. If a certain team had a killer roster back then, it should have it in the conversion.

Bottom line...I will have to do what Yankee4Life has suggested (and I thank him for that suggestion) and correct every single team roster. At the very least I will correct them so that people that were traded away don't also appear on the same team with people they were traded for.

Am I happy there is a 1961 mod. Of course. Am I happy with the way the roster situation is? No way. I think it actually takes away form the excellence of the rest of the mod. Those that are content with the roster...that's YOUR choice. I'm happy for you. Some of us just want a bit more in the realism area. If it means someone's favorite team will be exceptionally weak, tough. That's the way it was and the way it is.

[Sean O]

Have fun, Deputy. You'll get to experience the joy we have of spending hundreds of hours on a mod.

[DylanBradbury]

I understand the intensive work involved in creating these conversions. Am I wrong and these conversions aren't interested in accurately portraying the teams that actually played against each other? All that work making the player's stats and abilities and information accurate simply gets tossed in the garbage can when you have players that shouldn't even be on a team on the day and year specified in the opening screen

showing up there WITH the players that were traded for him. How in the world can that make any sense???? 25 players but some of them shouldnt be on the team and should be on another team.

"As Don said, the date on the opening screen was not meant to imply that the rosters were correct on that day in history."

No kidding. They are only vaguley close

"It's the date (other than the year) that the mod was originally created."

I checked every file in the conversion and none of them are dated March 20th. And what possible benefit would there be to knowing the month and day the mod was created? In this case March 20th. The EXACT wording on the start of the 1961 mod is "Team rosters current as of 3/20/61". I don't think that needs any interpretation. It says what it says. Nothing there about "created on this date".

I DON'T want someone "tweaking" with gameplay or trying to make a "level the playing field" in the name of gameplay. That concept is fine for politicians (although I think it sux there too), but it has no place in a sim that is trying to duplicate a certain season of baseball. If a certain team had a killer roster back then, it should have it in the conversion.

Bottom line...I will have to do what Yankee4Life has suggested (and I thank him for that suggestion) and correct every single team roster. At the very least I will correct them so that people that were traded away don't also appear on the same team with people they were traded for.

Am I happy there is a 1961 mod. Of course. Am I happy with the way the roster situation is? No way. I think it actually takes away form the excellence of the rest of the mod. Those that are content with the roster...that's YOUR choice. I'm happy for you. Some of us just want a bit more in the realism area. If it means someone's favorite team will be exceptionally weak, tough. That's the way it was and the way it is.

On your issue with the March 20, 1961 wording...

Every version of MVP (1927, 1946, 1994, 1998, etc.) all start off with the sentence "Team rosters current as of 3/31/2005." Roster creators substitute "2005" for whatever year they're modding. In your case it's 1961. They could also leave it as is, but they choose to edit it.

In the 1961 mod, instead of it saying "3/31/1961" because the rosters were made on the March 20, he decided to change it to "3/20/1961." That means that if he created the mod on December 31, he could of put "12/31/1961," or whatever he wanted, because it's his mod.

On "tweaking..."

Tweaking doesn't mean what you imply. In this case, after importing rosters from the Lahman Database, Jim and the other Total Classic modders use Stecropper's Global Tweaks, to improve the accuracy of the rosters.

On "Some of us just want a bit more in the realism area."

I think you're the only one. I don't think anyone has ever complained about the issues you seem so upset with.

One last thing, if I was Jim, Stecropper, Andy, Sal or anyone of the Total Classic creators I'd be greatly offended. As DJ put it, they put their blood, sweat, and tears into their mods, and you seem to think it's crap.

I forgot to add one thing.

A while back their was a user who didn't like my rating calculators. He complained. And complained. And complained. He didn't like how the calculators weren't able to create mass ratings. I explained to him that they weren't designed for mass rating calculations, like building a complete roster mod, but for individual player adjustments, and that my programming capability wasn't quite able to create what he wanted.

Eventually, my ability improved and I added a spreadsheet capability. He still complained, yet he was the only one who did.

Some people aren't happy unless they're complaining. (Luckily for me, he doesn't show his face around here anymore.) I think you're one of these people. Show some respect for the incredible amount of work modders do, and not what you want them to do.

I explained to him and I'll explain to you that if you don't like a mod, you don't have to use it.

[Jim825]

I hear your comments. You don't like the way we created the rosters and you have every right to feel that way. As they say, "Whatever floats your boat..." You do have the honor of being the first person in all these years to complain about this and also the only person ever to be so obsessed with a date on an intro screen. If Don ever releases an update to the *61 mod, I will implore him to remove that date from the opening screen.

As for the tweaking that we do to the player attributes, here is why we do some of it (which you probably won't agree with): When teams are imported from the Lahman database, MVPEdit creates player attributes (contact, power, etc.) looking purely at the player stats. While this sounds like a fine idea, we felt that there were times when it was not the best idea. An example of this is a relief pitcher who may have had very few at bats.

Say a pitcher has 20 at bats and he got 8 hits. That works out to be a .400 average. MVPEdit will most likely give this player a contact rating of 98 - 100. If 2 of those hits happened to be home runs, he would also have a very high power rating. I don't know about you but having a player with very few at bats perform like Babe Ruth at the plate does not seem very realistic to me. But then again, that's just me.

In addition, the tweaking we did was to make the results MORE realistic, not less. We never intended to level the playing field. As I stated in my last response, we make these tweaks so that when we run simulations, the final results (team records, league leaders, award winners) come out pretty close to the actual results for the season being modded. If that is not attempting to be realistic, I don't know what is.

The beauty of MVPEdit is that you can edit the rosters to your heart's content, and it sounds like you are going to busy for quite a while.

Finally, if you have any desire to download any of the other classic mods, I'll caution you that you probably won't like them either, since the same roster process was used on their rosters. I will also admit that the jukebox music I included with the TC1951 mod actually spans a number of years during the 1950's and is not specific to 1951. I figured I'd mention this now to prevent any "Error In Jukebox Music for 1951 Conversion" posts...... :)

[DJEagles]

I understand the intensive work involved in creating these conversions. Am I wrong and these conversions aren't interested in accurately portraying the teams that actually played against each other? All that work making the player's stats and abilities and information accurate simply gets tossed in the garbage can when you have players that shouldn't even be on a team on the day and year specified in the opening screen

showing up there WITH the players that were traded for him. How in the world can that make any sense???? 25 players but some of them shouldnt be on the team and should be on another team.

"As Don said, the date on the opening screen was not meant to imply that the rosters were correct on that day in history."

No kidding. They are only vaguley close

"It's the date (other than the year) that the mod was originally created."

I checked every file in the conversion and none of them are dated March 20th. And what possible benefit would there be to knowing the month and day the mod was created? In this case March 20th. The EXACT wording on the start of the 1961 mod is "Team rosters current as of 3/20/61". I don't think that needs any interpretation. It says what it says. Nothing there about "created on this date".

I DON'T want someone "tweaking" with gameplay or trying to make a "level the playing field" in the name of gameplay. That concept is fine for politicians (although I think it sux there too), but it has no place in a sim that is trying to duplicate a certain season of baseball. If a certain team had a killer roster back then, it should have it in the conversion.

Bottom line...I will have to do what Yankee4Life has suggested (and I thank him for that suggestion) and correct every single team roster. At the very least I will correct them so that people that were traded away don't also appear on the same team with people they were traded for.

Am I happy there is a 1961 mod. Of course. Am I happy with the way the roster situation is? No way. I think it actually takes away form the excellence of the rest of the mod. Those that are content with the roster...that's YOUR choice. I'm happy for you. Some of us just want a bit more in the realism area. If it means someone's favorite team will be exceptionally weak, tough. That's the way it was and the way it is.

If I were you, I would go dig out your sales receipt, and demand a FULL refund in the amount you payed for this mod. That's the least the modders can do for you...what you say? You downloaded it for free???? Holy crap, go figure...and you are still complaining? Wow, just...WOW. You sir, are an example of why modders are growing frustrated with certain members. You pick, and pick, and pick away at peoples work, yet offer none of your own work in return. If you have all these bright ideas, examples on how to make things better, then I challenge you sir to MAKE THEM BETTER. Release a roster set...Heck, release three. You will find it isn't as easy as it looks. Nope, won't happen though, instead you will come on here, all high and mighty, and tell everyone associated with this mod, how faulty it is. I apologize for saying this, but you sicken me. Complaining, and bitching, constructive or not, about a mod, which is damn near perfect. You payed nothing to download this mod, and just because you installed it to your PC, doesn't give you the right to continue to slam it. You don't accept any explanations, and continue to disagree, and continue to rip apart someone's work, without making any attempts to just solve your own problem.

Go away now, if it were up to me, you would be gone, based on your complaining...but that's not right, so I won't make that move. I understand people will complain, but you are really pushing it. I bet though,you'll keep downloading...and keep complaining.

[stecropper]

Hey Guys,

First off let me express my utmost appreciation for all the support and respect you guys are expressing while taking the time to respond to Deputy's comments. It truly is a golden example of how we here all appreciate and respect each others work here at MVPMods.

Second off let me honestly state that I am not the least bit offended by Deputy's comments. For the most part he makes some very accurate statements. But however accurate they are they are not the factors I use when building rosters. Obviously they would be with rosters that Deputy builds or would build and that is 100% fine and appropriate. I am truly flattered that he is so engaged with TC61* and I hope he eventually gets it to a point that he is totally comfortable with and can enjoy it fully to his liking. I for one have been building rosters since way back in the '80s for the Computer Baseball 64 game that ran on a Commodore 64 where I had to crack the code and do it all in Hex - but it was worth the results. I enjoy doing this stuff and will continue to do it and share it with who ever cares to partake in it. I appreciate and value all constructive and even non constructive comments from any and everyone. I listen to it all and try to gain from it. In this particular case, although I fully understand and appreciate Deputy's point of view, I will not be altering my roster building philosophy based on his preferences. I will continue to use my preferences and they have provided me with endless hours of fun and hopefully for many others as well.

So to ALL (including Deputy) THANKS and go forth and keep swingin' dat ole bat !

Take Care,

Don

[Deputy]

Hey Guys,

First off let me express my utmost appreciation for all the support and respect you guys are expressing while taking the time to respond to Deputy's comments. It truly is a golden example of how we here all appreciate and respect each others work here at MVPMods.

Second off let me honestly state that I am not the least bit offended by Deputy's comments. For the most part he makes some very accurate statements. But however accurate they are they are not the factors I use when building rosters. Obviously they would be with rosters that Deputy builds or would build and that is 100% fine and appropriate. I am truly flattered that he is so engaged with TC61* and I hope he eventually gets it to a point that he is totally comfortable with and can enjoy it fully to his liking. I for one have been building rosters since way back in the '80s for the Computer Baseball 64 game that ran on a Commodore 64 where I had to crack the code and do it all in Hex - but it was worth the results. I enjoy doing this stuff and will continue to do it and share it with who ever cares to partake in it. I appreciate and value all constructive and even non constructive comments from any and everyone. I listen to it all and try to gain from it. In this particular case, although I fully understand and appreciate Deputy's point of view, I will not be altering my roster building philosophy based on his preferences. I will continue to use my preferences and they have provided me with endless hours of fun and hopefully for many others as well.

So to ALL (including Deputy) THANKS and go forth and keep swingin' dat ole bat !

Take Care,

Don

Don,

I will ignore the other comments (including the rather droll, sarcastic ones), since they seem more interested in criticising me, rather than addressing the roster in the sim. And I really don't give two squirts about others opinions anyway. You know what they say about opinions And that includes MY opinions too. And I certainly am not asking you or anyone else to change the way they make the mods. It's YOUR mods and you do things the way you feel most comfortable with them. Heck, if you want a team that has all Ernie Banks playing every position, that's your call. I WILL be employing MVP Edit to correct the rosters in MVP 61, simply because I want the mod to be even BETTER than what it is. At least, better for me. And since I AM the one playing the sim, me being happy with it is all I care about.

BTW....I picked up a few rare cards for my 1959 Topps Collection...Ernie Banks, Hank Aaron, Eddie Matthews and Duke Snider. I got a real deal on the Duke Snider and it's in excellent/mint condition. That's the lowest grade of card that I buy. I just have a few more uncommons to buy and then I will end up like you....all rares and on the one-card-a-month program

I keep eyeballing the Mickey Mantle card, but spending hundreds of dollars for one card is VERY difficult to justify in this day and age

Dep