Debating Baseball

[snodgrass1912]

Yea.Yea. But he was was a winner.

[sabugo]

Both valid points.

I kind of liked him, but that stunt he pulled his last year was really really stupid.

[Yankee4Life]

Yea.Yea. But he was was a winner.

Well, he was surrounded by winners and I admit I was a fan of his in the early part of his career.

Both valid points.

I kind of liked him, but that stunt he pulled his last year was really really stupid.

Yeah, it made him go out on a bad note. That's why I don't think - and I am hoping that it never happens- that he does not get a plaque in Monument Park. And just watch, as time goes on and this does not happen, Posada will cry about it.

The Yankees never should have signed him to that last four-year contract that he had. He was done. The SOB.

[Yankee4Life]

Reading the shoutbox posts today about all the arm injuries in baseball it got me thinking about it a lot today.

Like everyone else I do not understand why there has been so many but like I wrote in the shoutbox Tommy John said that kids start throwing a baseball and pitching at a young age and never put the ball down. By the time they are 21 or 22 they've been pitching for over ten years and at that young age something gives. That makes sense.

What I also think is contributing to these injuries is the pitch count crap that they do. And that started with Tony Larussa and everybody copied him. Damn Larussa would count the pitches a pitcher threw in the bullpen along with any time he threw over to first.

Why does this happen now? We can argue that we have better conditioning facilities and ways to take care of our bodies here in 2014 than we had thirty, forty or fifty years ago but yet those pitchers who pitched then were healthier and pitched longer into games.

Sure there were injuries but not like today. This is the worst it has been and it should not be like that.

[DeadShot]

Reading the shoutbox posts today about all the arm injuries in baseball it got me thinking about it a lot today.

Like everyone else I do not understand why there has been so many but like I wrote in the shoutbox Tommy John said that kids start throwing a baseball and pitching at a young age and never put the ball down. By the time they are 21 or 22 they've been pitching for over ten years and at that young age something gives. That makes sense.

What I also think is contributing to these injuries is the pitch count crap that they do. And that started with Tony Larussa and everybody copied him. Damn Larussa would count the pitches a pitcher threw in the bullpen along with any time he threw over to first.

Why does this happen now? We can argue that we have better conditioning facilities and ways to take care of our bodies here in 2014 than we had thirty, forty or fifty years ago but yet those pitchers who pitched then were healthier and pitched longer into games.

Sure there were injuries but not like today. This is the worst it has been and it should not be like that.

I see CJ WIlson throw 130+ pitches against the Yanks.

[Yankee4Life]

I see CJ WIlson throw 130+ pitches against the Yanks.

But at the same time you realize how rare that is?

[sabugo]

But at the same time you realize how rare that is?

The fact that someone noticed it is in itself a proof of how rare that is nowadays.

Do they also count pitches in say, Japan? Or better yet, do they use pitch counts in the same way as in the US?

Edited May 15, 2014 by sabugo

[DeadShot]

Normally pitchers throw about 100+ before they stop. 130+ is a bit overboard. I think this definitely contributes to the rising elbow injuries.

[sabugo]

Interesting article about the TJ surgery:

http://mlb.si.com/2014/05/29/tommy-john-surgery-paper-dr-james-andrews-asmi/

[Yankee4Life]

Interesting article about the TJ surgery:

http://mlb.si.com/2014/05/29/tommy-john-surgery-paper-dr-james-andrews-asmi/

It sure is. And it makes me wonder if any of these ideas will be implemented. Something's got to be done.

[sabugo]

I was just browsing through yesterday's Yankees minors scores and two things stood out:

A) Nobody picked up Aceves (what a surprise), and he's on AAA Scranton.
Heath Bell is right there with him.

Why the Yankees keep doing these things, nobody knows.

[Yankee4Life]

Why the Yankees keep doing these things, nobody knows.

Because they're idiots.

[sabugo]

Because they're idiots.

They have to be. There is no other reasonable explanation.

[Yankee4Life]

Like I asked in the shoutbox if we want to continue talking about this subject we should do it here because it's so much easier to quote someone and respond better. That's the only reason why I suggested this thread.

Now where did we leave off? Oh yeah. Miguel Cabrera is a steroid user and has not been caught simply because he hasn't been tested. But you never know. And we brought up his drinking and his habit of hitting his wife. He also plays loud music at his home that bother the neighbors, kicks small dogs and constantly drives through red lights. Does that about cover it?

But Cabrera is an alter boy when you compare him to David Ortiz. Holy *&#^ the things he does and is involved in. I read an article about him years ago that no one here will believe and if I tell you what it was about you will accuse me of making it up because everyone knows I don't like him.

Ok, continue. Cabrera? Bad. Indians players? Good.

[gotribematt]

Cabrera like all players are tested. The testing can be well there are ways around it. They have lots of masking things to get around baseballs test. I said before the Biogenis players didn't test positive they were caught by other means. I am a big fan of the Dan Patrick show he talked to someone close to the testing process that said "you have to be an idiot to be caught" when it comes to testing.

The thing about Cabrera that sticks out is he never hit more then 10 hrs in the minors batted .286 there all of a sudden hes a near .300 hitting Hr hitter. Ummmmm yeah I'm going to throw the BS flag. His first full big league season he more then tripled his highest minor league HR total. Thats a pretty big jump. Then he's winning the triple crown beating the guys who we no were cheating. Again BS flag. Lance Armstrong told us he was just good enough to beat the cheaters on his own to. We no Armstrong was lieing. I 100% believe Cabrera is to.

But I'll never convince tiger fans of that just like they won't convince me otherwise. I have no real proof persay but I've heard this story before and each time it has ended up being the same way the guy was cheating. So I have no reason to think otherwise given the things Cabrera has done in his personal life he's not just to good of a guy to cheat. Sorry.

[rroy0824]

Cabrera like all players are tested. The testing can be well there are ways around it. They have lots of masking things to get around baseballs test. I said before the Biogenis players didn't test positive they were caught by other means. I am a big fan of the Dan Patrick show he talked to someone close to the testing process that said "you have to be an idiot to be caught" when it comes to testing.

Like I said before, the mistakes of others shouldn't be a knock against him. You shouldn't judge an entire race of people based on the actions of a few and you shouldn't judge all baseball players based on a select group of cheaters. The game is much different now than it was in the past. Until he fails a test, he should be considered clean. To me this point makes no sense.

The thing about Cabrera that sticks out is he never hit more then 10 hrs in the minors batted .286 there all of a sudden hes a near .300 hitting Hr hitter. Ummmmm yeah I'm going to throw the BS flag. His first full big league season he more then tripled his highest minor league HR total. Thats a pretty big jump. Then he's winning the triple crown beating the guys who we no were cheating. Again BS flag. Lance Armstrong told us he was just good enough to beat the cheaters on his own to. We no Armstrong was lieing. I 100% believe Cabrera is to.

What, when he was 17 years old? Players typically do not hit well right away. It takes time to develop and adjust to Major League pitching. That is the entire point of the Minor Leagues. Cabrera never hit 40 HR until his 9th year in the majors. Ken Griffey, Jr. never hit more than 14 HR in the minors. He hit 45 HR in his 5th year in the majors. He must be a steroid user too, right? This also doesn't work for me.

But I'll never convince tiger fans of that just like they won't convince me otherwise. I have no real proof persay but I've heard this story before and each time it has ended up being the same way the guy was cheating. So I have no reason to think otherwise given the things Cabrera has done in his personal life he's not just to good of a guy to cheat. Sorry.

You're right. You have no proof to show that he is a cheater. If he was an Indian, you would absolutely love the guy. The personal life stuff is just that, personal. Who are you or I to judge a guy who had an alcohol problem? He has admitted mistakes and have tried to better himself. This doesn't make him a bad person. Let's not forget that he has been nominated twice for the Roberto Clemente Award for his work with children.

[gotribematt]

Like I said before, the mistakes of others shouldn't be a knock against him. You shouldn't judge an entire race of people based on the actions of a few and you shouldn't judge all baseball players based on a select group of cheaters. The game is much different now than it was in the past. Until he fails a test, he should be considered clean. To me this point makes no sense.

What, when he was 17 years old? Players typically do not hit well right away. It takes time to develop and adjust to Major League pitching. That is the entire point of the Minor Leagues. Cabrera never hit 40 HR until his 9th year in the majors. Ken Griffey, Jr. never hit more than 14 HR in the minors. He hit 45 HR in his 5th year in the majors. He must be a steroid user too, right? This also doesn't work for me.

You're right. You have no proof to show that he is a cheater. If he was an Indian, you would absolutely love the guy. The personal life stuff is just that, personal. Who are you or I to judge a guy who had an alcohol problem? He has admitted mistakes and have tried to better himself. This doesn't make him a bad person. Let's not forget that he has been nominated twice for the Roberto Clemente Award for his work with children.

Griffey didn't more then TRIPLE his high in hrs his first full season did he? He went from 14 to 22. That's far different then 10 to 33 wouldn't you say

If you want to think he's clean go for it. I can't stop you. But Like I have said I've heard this story way to many times.

It's like the story of the boy who cried wolf. We each have to decided how many times it takes to here him cry wolf to get up ready to fight off said off only to see there was no wolf all along. I've heard it enough. If you want to keep running have fun.

[Homer]

don't you guys dare bring griffey into this conversation.

[rroy0824]

don't you guys dare bring griffey into this conversation.

I only did because he is seen as the ultimate clean guy from that era.

This whole thing is pretty pointless though. He obviously wants to believe that Cabrera is steroid user and I'm not going to be able to convince him otherwise. I guess just believe what you want.

[bctrackboi11]

don't you guys dare bring griffey into this conversation.

I still cringe when I remember those awful Reds teams he was on. They literally had him, Larkin and nobody else.

[Yankee4Life]

Cabrera like all players are tested. The testing can be well there are ways around it. They have lots of masking things to get around baseballs test. I said before the Biogenis players didn't test positive they were caught by other means. I am a big fan of the Dan Patrick show he talked to someone close to the testing process that said "you have to be an idiot to be caught" when it comes to testing.

Cabrera is tested just as much as David Ortiz is tested and means none at all.

The thing about Cabrera that sticks out is he never hit more then 10 hrs in the minors batted .286 there all of a sudden hes a near .300 hitting Hr hitter. Ummmmm yeah I'm going to throw the BS flag. His first full big league season he more then tripled his highest minor league HR total. Thats a pretty big jump. Then he's winning the triple crown beating the guys who we no were cheating. Again BS flag. Lance Armstrong told us he was just good enough to beat the cheaters on his own to. We no Armstrong was lieing. I 100% believe Cabrera is to.

You know what that is? Because it's harder for minor leaguers to get their order of steroids. A major leaguer has someone do it for him so when someone like David Ortiz says that "he never got involved with steroids" it's true. He had someone else get involved for him.

[gotribematt]

This whole thing is pretty pointless though. He obviously wants to believe that Cabrera is steroid user and I'm not going to be able to convince him otherwise. I guess just believe what you want.

You're correct there.

I 100% think he's dirty you 100% think he's clean not really a chance to change either of our minds

[rroy0824]

You know what that is? Because it's harder for minor leaguers to get their order of steroids. A major leaguer has someone do it for him so when someone like David Ortiz says that "he never got involved with steroids" it's true. He had someone else get involved for him.

Again, it probably has more to do with the fact that Cabrera was 17 years old and playing minor league baseball. Most 17 year old kids are still in high school. Why is it so hard to believe that a kid just developed? Mike Trout (a guy that gotribematt said he thought was not a steroid user) hit 30 HR in his rookie year. Do you know how many he hit in his last full year in the minors? 11. So can we just call him a steroid user too? This is how ridiculous this whole argument is. God forbid someone just be a better player than everyone else. Every generation has its standouts and guys like Cabrera and Trout are this generation's. It doesn't make them cheaters.

[gotribematt]

Cabrera is tested just as much as David Ortiz is tested and means none at all.

You know what that is? Because it's harder for minor leaguers to get their order of steroids. A major leaguer has someone do it for him so when someone like David Ortiz says that "he never got involved with steroids" it's true. He had someone else get involved for him.

Oh I think they are all tested. But due to the advances in medicine there are many things they can take to get around the test. Some of the guys in the BioGenis case tested clean when they weren't.

[Yankee4Life]

Again, it probably has more to do with the fact that Cabrera was 17 years old and playing minor league baseball. Most 17 year old kids are still in high school. Why is it so hard to believe that a kid just developed? Mike Trout (a guy that gotribematt said he thought was not a steroid user) hit 30 HR in his rookie year. Do you know how many he hit in his last full year in the minors? 11. So can we just call him a steroid user too? This is how ridiculous this whole argument is. God forbid someone just be a better player than everyone else. Every generation has its standouts and guys like Cabrera and Trout are this generation's. It doesn't make them cheaters.

I'm not questioning Trout. The guy's never been in trouble so there is no reason to accuse him of something.

Oh I think they are all tested. But due to the advances in medicine there are many things they can take to get around the test. Some of the guys in the BioGenis case tested clean when they weren't.

I would put every amount of money I have in the bank and say that Ortiz has not taken a test in years.