ROSTER MAKERS...Unite?

[ZMan]

Hey all,

The forums have been relatively quiet lately re: a proposed full AAA/AA/A set for 2005. The talk of a community-led effort (with online roster editor) is pretty exciting, and I'd like to contribute my time if possible to the creation of this proposed roster set.

I have a busy life as many of you do, so I won't make some grandiose plans to mod a complete set, since I know how much work that entails.

But, what I do have is a bevy of prospect information and some sabermetric formulas in progress for converting players into EA's MVP-style ratings. I'm thinking of putting together a spreadsheet of converted player ratings, based off of the information in:

* John Sickels's The Baseball Prospect Book 2005

* Baseball Prospectus 2005

* Ron Shandler's 2005 Baseball Forecaster (he has some excellent formulas for Speed and Power that should convert over well to EA.)

* Baseball America's 2005 Prospect Book (not yet released, but I'll soon have it in hand.)

* A couple of different iterations of 2005 MLB projections, as well as 2005 MLE (minor league equivalencies)

I don't know how the online roster set modders want to expedite the process of rating some 2000+ players, but I figure that it would be helpful to develop some kind of generally-agreed upon rating formulas as a community. In addition to such formulas, folks would have to scout out some sources for evaluating the more subjective categories -- arm strength, durability, to say nothing of many pitching categories.

If we could do that, I would be happy to create a spreadsheet with all of the players, with their ratings calculated based on these formulas. Having such a shared utility would be a major asset to the community, to say the least.

Any takers?

[ZMan]

Some other thoughts...

Will the proposed rosters contain 75 minor leaguers per team? Should we begin figuring out who those 75 should be yet?

Potentially useful formulas:

Ron Shandler has two interesting measures for power and speed, the appropriately named SX (Speed Index) and PX (power index). Both run on a 1-200 scale, with 100 being the league average, so they could be easily divided by 2 to produce a rating for MVP Baseball.

SX is based off an old Bill James formula. It is calculated as the mean value of the following four elements:

1) Stolen base efficiency = (((SB+3)/(SB+CS+7))-.4) * 20

2) Stolen base frequency = Square root of ((SB + CS)/(Singles + BB)) / .07

3) Triples rating = (3B / (AB-HR-K)) and the result assigned a value based on the following chart:

< 0.001 = 0

0.001 = 1

0.0023 = 2

0.0039 = 3

0.0058 = 4

0.008 = 5

0.0105 = 6

0.013 = 7

0.0158 = 8

0.0189 = 9

0.223+ = 10

4) Runs scored as a percentage of times on base = (((R-HR)/(H+BB-HR))-.1) / .04

The SX is derived from taking this total (Batter's Spd.), dividing it by the League Avg. Speed, and multiplying by 100. For our purposes this would be halved. (SX/2)

The PX, or Power Index, is based off of Linear Weighted Power:

((Doubles x . + (Triples x . + (HR x 1.4)) / (At bats - K) x 100

Again, this number is divided by the league average, multiplied by 100 and you have a clean power rating. PX/2 would make for a pretty decent power rating in MVP.

Further suggestions on formulas?

[carter]

I like this idea Zman, but I don't know if it is feasible.

I was thinking recently that we have a large enough community here that if everyone got together and worked team by team things could be accomplished quicker.

For instance, I am from Toronto and I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable about the Toronto Blue Jays. Therefore if we had a thread for rosters alone with sub-threads about each team, then I could do a complete run through of the Jays team including all major and minor changes and updates for the MLB team all the way down to single A. The same goes for every other team.

What do you think?

[ZMan]

That isn't a bad idea, but two problems arise:

1) Objectivity is difficult to maintain across the board.

2) The bigger problem is that without universal standards from which to rate minor leaguers, different big league systems will be rated differently.

I see the other side of the argument, though, in that people want to get a roster together quickly.

In any case, whatever form the community roster takes, I would be interested in tweaking the ratings for a "Sabermetric Stat-Head" roster set.

[Millennium]

Being a roster geek, I would be all over this. Let me know if you need any help.

I current own the Scouting Handbook, and plan to purchase the Baseball America Prospect Handbook come March 22nd.

Also a huge O's fan. Just keep me informed.

The biggest issue I would see us running into is batter patience ratings. I would just suggest that, for individual pitch ratings we leave them the same (unless a batter is known for being a fastball hitter) and work on plate discipline as a whole.

[Kriegz]

I like carter's idea, just to supply the roster modders with info on the players at the least

[carter]

I agree ZMan.

The formulas you listed are good, but there are always exceptions to the rules. It's really hard. I'll have to think about this further.

[theFATTY]

I think having people contribute would help. But it would have to be facts, not your opinions on them. Post the pitches they have, what they should look like, pictures of them. And then find things that the scouts say about them and post that. Each team could have its own post and each post could have a player with pictures of him, height/weight, personal information and then a paragraph from a scout or something.

[ZMan]

The biggest issue I would see us running into is batter patience ratings. I would just suggest that, for individual pitch ratings we leave them the same (unless a batter is known for being a fastball hitter) and work on plate discipline as a whole.

For sure, this would be one of the toughest things to figure out, particularly for less known minor leaguers. Similar difficulties arise in rating the pitch types of pitchers.

Also, I'm in agreement that a preliminary roster set could be most expeditiously assembled if 30 people just went at it and did one system each. But, if nobody would mind, I'd like to be able to tinker with any set that is produced, and use that as a base for a more sabermetrically inclined version.

[jscand]

I am about 75% done on the Mets if anyone is interested in what I have done. It is for my own use, so the ratings will not be what some people want, but you could change whatever you want for this roster set. What I have so far is:

Projected major league roster.

AAA roster (includes Spring invites not on big league roster)

AA roster (projected)

A roster (Kind of a best of the rest. Not necessarily the St. Lucie Mets, but a combo of St. Lucie, Kingsport, Brooklyn Cyclones, and newcomers).

I have added all the height. weights, stances, pitch types, pitch styles, etc., as well as found major leaguers that look closest to these guys to change the faces. I have also numbered and created a portrait set.

The only thing that would need to be updated:

1. The stats to conform to your standards

2. The photos, as I did not make the background transparent. You will see Spring Training facility backgrounds behind most of the player faces in the photo. Someone would have to go in and make those transparent as that is certainly not my specialty.

If you anyone would like the .fsh files & .mbe roster file to use for this project, please just let me know.

[carter]

The only worry I have about starting individual team threads is that disagreements can turn ugly quickly. I don't want to see pages and pages of insults about players overtaking the original point of the threads. I know that fans of one team will no doubt enter other teams threads just to cause problems.

[bluemax]

It's too bad there's no program for MVP baseball like the FPS series' DATAIN utility. That program was sweet, just enter a players stats, splits, fielding numbers etc and it would automatically generate their in game ratings.

[olyrunner]

jackcasper49 has been working hard to put together a roster, and I'm sure he would appreciate any helpful data that you all have collected on your respective favorite teams. His spreadsheet is available HERE.

[poonani]

I am about 75% done on the Mets if anyone is interested in what I have done. It is for my own use, so the ratings will not be what some people want, but you could change whatever you want for this roster set. What I have so far is:

Projected major league roster.

AAA roster (includes Spring invites not on big league roster)

AA roster (projected)

A roster (Kind of a best of the rest. Not necessarily the St. Lucie Mets, but a combo of St. Lucie, Kingsport, Brooklyn Cyclones, and newcomers).

I have added all the height. weights, stances, pitch types, pitch styles, etc., as well as found major leaguers that look closest to these guys to change the faces. I have also numbered and created a portrait set.

The only thing that would need to be updated:

1. The stats to conform to your standards

2. The photos, as I did not make the background transparent. You will see Spring Training facility backgrounds behind most of the player faces in the photo. Someone would have to go in and make those transparent as that is certainly not my specialty.

If you anyone would like the .fsh files & .mbe roster file to use for this project, please just let me know.

i'm doing the exact same thing for the yankees

[rolie]

you got my hand in the dodger organization, real facts huh, no prob, i think the dodgers have affiliate websites for each team in the minors.

[jpup]

It's too bad there's no program for MVP baseball like the FPS series' DATAIN utility. That program was sweet, just enter a players stats, splits, fielding numbers etc and it would automatically generate their in game ratings.

this is exactly what we need. The only person that has really come up with a good rating system in Geforce. He refuses to help anyone by releasing the formulas. He and I had a falling out over this very issue. Z Man, we'll talk if you are interested. I am planning on doing pretty much the same thing you proposed as far as sabr.

[Nomarhits400]

GeForce may not be releaasing his formulas- and I don't mean any disrespect hear- but it's not rocket science and I am confident someone (I can do it myself- though I have limited free time) can accomplish this task.

The hardest part of the process is establishing acceptable boundries for performance- as we are limited to a scaling of 100 in the ratings (what constitutes a 100 power rating- .600 Slg, 700 Slg...etc,). I am sure GForce struggled with this as well. If I understand correctly- ballpark factors need to actually factored OUT- as the game has corrections for these in the game...Is this correct? For instance, Helton's attributes would be slightly lower for power figures, and would consequently be increased due to park effects- since their is a postive contribution from Coor's itself.

I believe GFroce may have used the previous 2 or 3 years of a players career to establish baselines for his projections (when available). The toughest part might be coming up with agreed upon MLE's for the minor leaguers so as to convert those to MVP attributes while still accounting for improvement. It sounds to me, though, that ZMAN is willing to objectively undertake this task- and I agree there needs to be one person sanititizing and correcting all ratings if this project is parted out...Just my 2 cents...

[rglass95]

It's too bad there's no program for MVP baseball like the FPS series' DATAIN utility. That program was sweet, just enter a players stats, splits, fielding numbers etc and it would automatically generate their in game ratings.

I could probably add something like this to MVPedit. You could just have everyone enter the players' stats, and then hit a big calculate button which would redo ratings across the board based on user-defined formulas stored in something like a text file.

The only problem is the lefty-righty splits. But you can get the general idea from the Lahman Database import - this is precisely what it does.

[ZMan]

That would resolve many, many issues rglass.

Were that able to be added to MVPEdit, we would need only to debate about how to work out the formulas.

[GForce22]

I could probably add something like this to MVPedit. You could just have everyone enter the players' stats, and then hit a big calculate button which would redo ratings across the board based on user-defined formulas stored in something like a text file.

The only problem is the lefty-righty splits. But you can get the general idea from the Lahman Database import - this is precisely what it does.

DangerZ's old High Heat editor had generic split adjustments built in to its calculations. Believe they were:

Righty batter vs Right pitcher: .97

Righty batter vs Lefty pitcher: 1.03

Lefty batter vs Righty pitcher: 1.07

Lefty batter vs Lefty pitcher: .91

GH

[GForce22]

this is exactly what we need. The only person that has really come up with a good rating system in Geforce. He refuses to help anyone by releasing the formulas. He and I had a falling out over this very issue..

Oh brother, spare me the f'in melodrama.

There was no "falling out." You asked for my formulas...I said I wasn't releasing them, never have. You said you understood and that was fine. Weeks later you asked again...I repeated that I don't release my formulas, and you bitched and moaned and carried on like a baby about it. I guess trying to do the work on your own got too hard for you. I ignored the rest of your messages.

Listen, you want to benefit from my work again like you did last year when you slapped your name on work that was 95% mine. I let you do it last year so I wouldn't have to listen to crap like this. But every year, somebody takes my work, makes a couple of changes and slaps their name on it like they did something. Frankly, I'm tired of it.

I have busted my *** for years to develop these formulas and ratings mechanisms, and they always change, they always evolve. There is a lot that goes into it calculations-wise that, quite frankly, I don't feel like taking the time to explain. I have provided general explanations about what I use to figure out ratings several times. Take the time, do the research, and work a bit instead of waiting for me to spoon feed it to you for a game I'm not even working on and there's a good chance I won't even be buying.

I have no obligation to release anything. Stop acting like a spoiled brat and accept that rather than trying to rip me to the forum because you didn't get your way.

GH

[jpup]

hmmmmmmm

why are you here if you aren't going to play the game?

here is the last message that I got from Geforece if anyone is interested. Following it is my reply. Guess he didn't read it, so I will let you all.

All the sheets are are the formulas organized.

Spare me the "so much for helping a fellow modder" nonsense. You made a name last year taking my work. You can do it on your own merits this year.

GH

i made a name by taking your work? ever checked out my stadium? ever checked out my roster mods from other games?

the whole reason i asked if I could update your rosters last year is because I thought you did a good job.

when you mod a stadium then come talk to me about making a name. i don't care about making any kind of name. I am here because I enjoy it. i have been doing rosters for years and nothing is going to change that. i am here to help other people and myself enjoy this game to the fullest. If you are not, then why are you here.

you could have simply said that I choose not to help you with the formulas. I am no idiot and I will come up with my own formulas. There are a lot of people depending on me to put out a roster set. Don't try talking down to me like I am nothing. I have done nothing but show you respect. If you knew how many people that I pissed off last year over your roster then you might think again. I always told everyone that it was based off of your roster and that you came up with all of the ratings. If you didn't want this to happen then you should have told me no from the start last year.

most of us modders on this site have a good relationship, something you would know nothing about because you choose not to help anyone. if you are in it for the glory then you need to get the hell out. this is about a community not about one person.

Again, you do good work, but you have no sense of what this place is about. Why are you here if not to help and learn. I don't pretend to know anything other than what others have taught me and things that I have picked up along the way. Renegade spent countless hours teaching me how to use Oedit, now we are great friends. I have tried to help others when they have asked me to. I will continue to do that.

Keep in mind, if it weren't for Rglass then you would be a nobody. He is the reason that we can even do the rosters like we do. So, don't think that you are something special and better than anyone. We all have to depend on each other. You depended on him and I was hoping that you would help me out.

Have a good day.

[jpup]

He is the readme from the rosters from last year. Nevermind that I spent hours upon hours updating the rosters through MVPedit. Here it is (you can d/l them in the roster section):

Jpup's TotalMinors Plus Version 2.5

========================================================================================

MLB rosters are current as of August 11, 2004

New In This Version:

Updated the MLB rosters with the transactions since the last update.

All MLB Lineups and Rotations have been reset to reflect their respective team.

MLB jersey numbers have been updated.

All MLB Trade Deadline transactions are included.

========================================================================================

Ratings by Geforce22 based on TotalMinors 4 (available at mvpmods.com).

=========================================================================================

Installation: Copy .dat files into your MVP Baseball data folder

=========================================================================================

Thanks to Gforce22 for allowing me to update his great work on TotalMinors version 4

Thanks to Rglass for his amazing MVPEdit

Thanks to Trues for "our" great community at mvpmods.com

Information gathered from MLB.com, Rototimes.com, minorleaguebaseball.com, and espn.com.

If you have any questions contact me through the forums at www.mvpmods.com.

Please post all feedback, questions, and/or problems in the forum at mvpmods.com

Please do not edit my work for public use without permission.

[jpup]

So let's see how I am thought of. Here is a PM that I got today from Bill Harris. I had asked him if he was doing sliders for the game this year. Here is the message:

There are a bunch of guys who can do that really well. I'm going to work on player progression because it's really unbalanced and I have more unique knowledge in that area.

How's GAB going? Smile Weren't you the one who did that fantastic version last yer?

[fuzzone]

i think u guys need to chill out.

we should all holds hands.